Troubadour OP?

[Sainey]

I wonder if there should be an option to toggle this folk off at the start of runs? These guys just hard carried me through most of my folk mode run and I'm guessing that players who beat this mode *before* the troubadour character would have had a very different experience.

To the alternative of just not picking them when they show up: fair for the most part (although depends how good you are at fighting temptation), but on a constrained run especially in hard (30 day) mode, losing that slot at the inn on the day(s) they show up could be run destroying.

[vandermaesengames]

Yeah, I definitely made him OP, nerfed that class a bit but I made him free by mistake (kind of).
Thinking about making the Troubadour class cost more than standard tier 2 classes, and only add it to the tier 2 pool.

Someone else suggested that I hard nerf this class and make it a tier 1 class, this way you could have mage-troubadours or ranger-troubadour combinaitions.

[jammy]

I think troubador is pretty average tbh - considering you can start getting barbarians on day 3 which is a stronger unit that can carry you through the whole run. I guess troubador is stronger in folk mode, but still, it's not a won run if you get one. Weakish heals/buffs, mediocre AOE, no weapon upgrade. Meh

[Sainey]

Originally posted by vandermaesengames:

Yeah, I definitely made him OP, nerfed that class a bit but I made him free by mistake (kind of).
Thinking about making the Troubadour class cost more than standard tier 2 classes, and only add it to the tier 2 pool.

Someone else suggested that I hard nerf this class and make it a tier 1 class, this way you could have mage-troubadours or ranger-troubadour combinaitions.

The idea of having them as a tier 1 unit that can then be trained and combined with other classes is dope! Yes please!

I guess the easiest nerf at the moment would be to drop their baseline damage and maybe reduce the number of turns that the attack buff lasts, maybe to 3 turns instead of 5?

[Old Crow]

Originally posted by jammy:

I think troubador is pretty average tbh - considering you can start getting barbarians on day 3 which is a stronger unit that can carry you through the whole run. I guess troubador is stronger in folk mode, but still, it's not a won run if you get one. Weakish heals/buffs, mediocre AOE, no weapon upgrade. Meh

You mean Berzerker? It's not as good as a troubadour, but they have different roles. Dump two Troubs in a party, give them amulets or spike bracelets and it's GG. You can stack +20 attack on the whole party while healing all for 10 for FREE, you have a FREE high damage aoe (better than many paid skills) and cheap attack all and access to burn if you ever need it, though you really don't with this setup. It's OP. A buffer up Zerker is good, it's a great boss killer, but it's use case is narrowed. It's a single target killer.

Two Troubadours and a Saint will stack you up right from the get go to the point that it doesn't matter who the rest of the two picks are https://imgur.com/a/yZPpNNw

Btw note for dev - his fire attack doesn't scale with +atk, it's a bug.

[jammy]

10 healing really isn't that good (outclassed by saint), and attack buffs aren't that good either considering you need several turns to build them up. you may as well just attack with a stronger unit (e.g berserker/wizard/occultist/lvl2 ranger). units with upgraded weapons do so much damage that buffs aren't necessary anyway - only time when I would actively buff is the encounter just before a boss fight.

troubador is strong-ish early compared to unupgraded units, but he gets outclassed pretty quickly.

[Mr Ekanae]

Originally posted by Old Crow:

Btw note for dev - his fire attack doesn't scale with +atk, it's a bug.

It's not a bug. This is a fire attack so it would be buffed by an artifact with the +5 Atk to fire attack. Amulets and Bracelets are only for neutral attacks.

[agkessler]

I think Thief mode becomes very hard if you nerf the Troubadour

[vandermaesengames]

Originally posted by agkessler:

I think Thief mode becomes very hard if you nerf the Troubadour

Thinking about rebalancing the thief mode as well

[Old Crow]

Originally posted by jammy:

10 healing really isn't that good (outclassed by saint), and attack buffs aren't that good either considering you need several turns to build them up. you may as well just attack with a stronger unit (e.g berserker/wizard/occultist/lvl2 ranger). units with upgraded weapons do so much damage that buffs aren't necessary anyway - only time when I would actively buff is the encounter just before a boss fight.

troubador is strong-ish early compared to unupgraded units, but he gets outclassed pretty quickly.

Well i disagree, 10 healing and +2 attack for 5 turns is superior to harming yourself in order to heal, specially since damage is often spread out and you don't need that big of an overheal. That's why you bring two of then, plus a saint for the power heal and you're covered for both low scattered damage and high bursts. Saint's heal gets worse the more attack you have as well because at some point he harms himself for as much as he heals. Saint also can't damage for ♥♥♥♥ and troubadours can damage everyone.

I though +5 atk to fire means that burning deals 5 more damage. Otherwise both elemental damage and that item suck. Either way, it's the most useless skill in his set. I never ever used any power with troub to be honest, i either healed or used the free aoe because i didn't need anything else. Two troubs and a saint can carry you all the way to the final boss, where due to the nature of encounter you want more burst than a marathon.

[Ryou]

Troubadour is OP early game but falls off late game. As it stands, he's balanced for the mid-game, so that's about when he should start showing up.

[gareeth]

I was pleasantly surprised by how OP he seemed in this game where it wouldn't be a weekly OP nerf not sufficiently powered - patch and repeat. Nostalgia I didn't even expect included in the price .

I am not entirely sure it is OP now given the trade offs and how it goes if you use this without another class which has good heals and good damage - again tapping into nostalgia for the not great options of another game where you are less flexible in real time.

I think I have internalized contempt for non-direct damage dealers from decades of training.

[The Inept European]

Troubadour definitely needs to be made a later tier and also not free. Troubadour is a unit you can take all the way to the end game. It is the most powerful single unit in the game, when used properly.

[The Inept European]

If you do not nerf Troubadour then I would suggest it is increased to a 150G or maybe 500G hire. It is effectively as good as a maxed out regular character.

On the other hand, the idea of making Troubadour an upgradeable "level 1" class is very interesting.

A level 1 Troubadour might have:

Knife attack ATK 5 (down from 15) but still x 2 front targets
Party ATK buff +1 (down from +2) and without the +5HP health (or +1HP health to allow runes to buff it?)
Fire breath single target only?

The levelled up Troubadour (Troubadour + Troubadour) would have the same stats as the current (pre-1.1.0) Troubadour.