I find no joy in playing this game

[sortebill]

I've played a lot of FM, and I mean a lot. I've played thousands of hours through the years. Now I've had a break for a good 5 years and decided to try it again. It looks more polished than ever but this game reminds me more of Championship Manager 4 than any CM/FM game, and it just seems utterly broken. Sure, the new data stuff is nice, and I understand that games need to evolve to stay relevant. I just don't understand this game at all, my players produce high quality chances but somehow the opposition always scores on their low quality bs or the hit me on the counter and my defenders seem unable to defend, they hit blasts from 20 meters, and we're not talking high quality teams here, just your bang average teams. I've set my tactic up to play to my players strengths and it isn't all that different from the FM16 or FM17 i played a few years ago. I didn't chose the most difficult team to play either, chose a team that already had players to do my trusty old 4-5-1 with DLP, wingers and such. It's just boring, I lose for no apparently logical reason and wasn't this supposed to be a game? As in Fun? Because this isn't my idea of fun, if I need to have some kind of advanced mathematical degree from the university of obtusity then it's not worth my time or my money. And all the damn nagging, these assistants and advisors, can you for the love of god please shut the ♥♥♥♥ up for five seconds? "Oh you can just adjust that in the settings"... please, the settings for this is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ A3 sheet of paper full of annoyance. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, worst game I've ever played in this series!

[gtjbm]

The game's direction has changed away from fun in the sense of no effort needed by using a plug n play to beat the engine to be successful, to now a more realistic one that requires a bit more effort and understanding of football - which for some, has much been called for as this instead is what is fun, and a challenge.

The game is far from perfect and in areas the realism is quite poor in addition to the number of bugs existing in the game, and especially the 3 central striker exploits. (for example possession football nor catenaccio doesn't work well enough considering it's the most successful styles irl with the right players for it, possession for league prolonged success and catenaccio for cups)

But, I expect the series will continue in this more realistic direction and some, including myself, appreciate the direction it's headed. I didn't like a lot of this year's game as some of the patches were pretty poor indeed, but the last patch released is actually an extremely positive one in this new direction ME wise and I hope that SI continue to move in this way, making more tactical styles viable and less exploitation of the engine for next year.

[StuTheMoose]

It's harder, more work is required to be successful but when you get to grasps with it the game is much more rewarding than the days of "find a wonder tactic and win all the time"

Been playing the series since the first Champ Manager and this is the first time since 2012 that I've put over 1000hrs into a version. There's still plenty of annoyances and complete lack of logic at times, but that's always been the case. Overall though it's the most fun I've had with FM for a very long time.

[stockwellpete]

I think it is a very good and challenging game, apart from two serious flaws - fixture congestion and exaggerated stamina drops during matches.

[Simonson [29th Ret.]]

I've been playing since 17' and I think it's great. Always something to think about. 99% of the complaints on here are user error and not the game.

[Myll]

SI has added way too many "extra" algorithms to factor in what happens in a match, instead of weighting most of the games factored actions against - the actual talent of the players. A gamer who puts in time and effort to diligently train their virtual players, which is the equivalent of a Role-Playing Game's "Character Development" -- should see more rewards play out for that effort. Sure, the Tactics matter also, but in fact - they don't, at times. If you use the same Tactic over and over, there are punishing algorithms for sameness, even though football tends to actually reward consistency in the real world.

And there it is - one of the reasons that I think FM is changing for the worse, is that there isn't enough realism put towards the algorithms and output of the game. Real work, real practice, sweat and scars and tears and all - it pays off in real world footballing, but in the FM Series there has been way too much "Footballing SIMS" junk that has infected the game. Star Player in the locker room..."Nervous"...on the pitch, looks "ill disciplined" and barely holding up a 6.00 rating in a big match (and doesn't even have the "Doesn't like big matches" trait) -- way too many of these random nerfs in the game. There's also a system where apparently SI has coded in a preset buff that someone will be the standout player, and standout sub (if they're used), as if they are Superman waiting to happen for that match, as if the stats of opposition doesn't even matter. These "random" things should be seriously considered for removal from FM game design in future iterations, so I sympathize with the OP on the direction of the FM Series being a bit "off the mark."

Just a vignette on a recent match, it was a lower tier club against a much higher tier club - 2 full league tiers above it in the FA Cup. Of course, the higher-tier club is supposed to win, and I was certain it would be a loss for the lower-tier club that I was playing, but the first result was so nutty, I had to load a save and play the match over - and then over and over again, to see a similar pattern emerge. My lower-tier club clearly had metrics working against it as if "must lose" instead of simply playing out the match with goals. So, every single game, one of the following occurred:
- One or more of my players had major injuries. On one of the matches, it was 2 separate players with 6+ month duration injuries.
- Every other match, a red card was received by one of my players. And I only have Balanced or "Determined" type personalities on my club, none with high aggression. And these Red Cards all followed a pattern where they were received within 15 minutes of the match start, as if they happened to spin a virtual wheel in the background that landed on "Red Card" as the pathway to defeat for my club.
- Yellow Cards in batches. As many as 8 Yellow Cards in one match, with at least 4 yellow cards in other matches. Most of the replayed matches were around 4, but much like the Red Card "jackpot" - some matches would start off where within 15 minutes of start, I already had 2-3 yellow cards on key starters.
- Players getting "...looks ill disciplined" problems during the match. I hadn't even seen this before (I was dominant in lower tier competition with talent far above other peer clubs, so this was the first big challenge in the season). But to suddenly have first-team players, who are at "Star Player" caliber and have Balanced Personalities, suddenly crop up "ill Discipline" within 10 minutes of starting a big match? That just doesn't make sense. Ok, if we're playing SIMS here, maybe "nervous" for a couple of them here and there, for the first 5-10 minutes of the match may make sense, but to be undisciplined? I think not. These are players who know the other team's ownership and manager are watching them. They are being SCOUTED by a club that is 2 tiers above us, so why in the name of all that is holy, would any player suddenly decide to be "ill disciplined" when his career future could be on the line to show his best stuff? Makes no sense whatsoever. Oh, about that "nervous" aspect - why doesn't that fade after the first 10 minutes of the match? Players don't just stay nervous all match long, they get in a groove, some faster than others. Having virtual players as "nervous" for all 90 minutes of a match is just ridiculous.

I don't think this is normal, and it's not the way game players want to see the matches carried out. I don't want an RNG factor that creates situations out of nothing -- I want to see a match play out based on the differences in the talent and tactics of the clubs. The "SIMS" and drama injects are overdone in the FM series, at this point.

[Spimmy]

At the end of the day the game should be fun

[daveyfunk]

Originally posted by Myll:

SI has added way too many "extra" algorithms to factor in what happens in a match, instead of weighting most of the games factored actions against - the actual talent of the players. A gamer who puts in time and effort to diligently train their virtual players, which is the equivalent of a Role-Playing Game's "Character Development" -- should see more rewards play out for that effort. Sure, the Tactics matter also, but in fact - they don't, at times. If you use the same Tactic over and over, there are punishing algorithms for sameness, even though football tends to actually reward consistency in the real world.

And there it is - one of the reasons that I think FM is changing for the worse, is that there isn't enough realism put towards the algorithms and output of the game. Real work, real practice, sweat and scars and tears and all - it pays off in real world footballing, but in the FM Series there has been way too much "Footballing SIMS" junk that has infected the game. Star Player in the locker room..."Nervous"...on the pitch, looks "ill disciplined" and barely holding up a 6.00 rating in a big match (and doesn't even have the "Doesn't like big matches" trait) -- way too many of these random nerfs in the game. There's also a system where apparently SI has coded in a preset buff that someone will be the standout player, and standout sub (if they're used), as if they are Superman waiting to happen for that match, as if the stats of opposition doesn't even matter. These "random" things should be seriously considered for removal from FM game design in future iterations, so I sympathize with the OP on the direction of the FM Series being a bit "off the mark."

Just a vignette on a recent match, it was a lower tier club against a much higher tier club - 2 full league tiers above it in the FA Cup. Of course, the higher-tier club is supposed to win, and I was certain it would be a loss for the lower-tier club that I was playing, but the first result was so nutty, I had to load a save and play the match over - and then over and over again, to see a similar pattern emerge. My lower-tier club clearly had metrics working against it as if "must lose" instead of simply playing out the match with goals. So, every single game, one of the following occurred:
- One or more of my players had major injuries. On one of the matches, it was 2 separate players with 6+ month duration injuries.
- Every other match, a red card was received by one of my players. And I only have Balanced or "Determined" type personalities on my club, none with high aggression. And these Red Cards all followed a pattern where they were received within 15 minutes of the match start, as if they happened to spin a virtual wheel in the background that landed on "Red Card" as the pathway to defeat for my club.
- Yellow Cards in batches. As many as 8 Yellow Cards in one match, with at least 4 yellow cards in other matches. Most of the replayed matches were around 4, but much like the Red Card "jackpot" - some matches would start off where within 15 minutes of start, I already had 2-3 yellow cards on key starters.
- Players getting "...looks ill disciplined" problems during the match. I hadn't even seen this before (I was dominant in lower tier competition with talent far above other peer clubs, so this was the first big challenge in the season). But to suddenly have first-team players, who are at "Star Player" caliber and have Balanced Personalities, suddenly crop up "ill Discipline" within 10 minutes of starting a big match? That just doesn't make sense. Ok, if we're playing SIMS here, maybe "nervous" for a couple of them here and there, for the first 5-10 minutes of the match may make sense, but to be undisciplined? I think not. These are players who know the other team's ownership and manager are watching them. They are being SCOUTED by a club that is 2 tiers above us, so why in the name of all that is holy, would any player suddenly decide to be "ill disciplined" when his career future could be on the line to show his best stuff? Makes no sense whatsoever. Oh, about that "nervous" aspect - why doesn't that fade after the first 10 minutes of the match? Players don't just stay nervous all match long, they get in a groove, some faster than others. Having virtual players as "nervous" for all 90 minutes of a match is just ridiculous.

I don't think this is normal, and it's not the way game players want to see the matches carried out. I don't want an RNG factor that creates situations out of nothing -- I want to see a match play out based on the differences in the talent and tactics of the clubs. The "SIMS" and drama injects are overdone in the FM series, at this point.

Fully agree with this.

It's just random why a tactic works and then doesn't and I have the best players in the world, give team talks that get the best reactions blabla all the rest of it, but some games it makes no difference what you do and seems to be some RNG that pops up that simply means nothing matters and your team plays like garbage.

That's really not fun, challenging or anything else BUT just frustrating and to add this as 'realism' and to suggest it's more realistic that a team has down moments would be fine if there was some reason, but it seems you're just fighting an inevitable mechanic of the game and just makes it seem futile.

If there's actually a reason for why this happens and you can see it then fine, but to get positives across the board, have the best players and they destroy teams but then inevitably hit a slump is a poor way to implement 'realism'

[glenhaig]

If it's any consolation, I almost abandoned the game after a few false starts. It's true that the game feels more like punishment when things aren't going well and the match engine, improved though it is in comparison to 5 or so years ago, can still have you pulling your hair out! How many times do goals get chalked off for offside in the game in comparison to real life?! Also, there's still a sense of being able to predict what the algorithms have decided the match result is going to be by watching the first couple of highlights, especially if you have them set to "key highlights" as I do.

That said, once you get into a save and find a tactic that works, the game is very rewarding. For what it's worth, I play a balanced 4-3-3; a deep lying midfielder as a DLP and 2 midfielders in front, one on Box to Box and the other on MEZ. Two attacking wingers (one as a inverted winger and one as an inside forward seems to work better than playing them as wide wingers) and either a poacher or advanced forward up front.

Just ignore all the noise from your assistant and NEVER hold a team meeting when you only need 1 point from your last 3 matches to seal promotion or a playoff place!

[Not a black panther not white]

Originally posted by sortebill:

I've played a lot of FM, and I mean a lot. I've played thousands of hours through the years. Now I've had a break for a good 5 years and decided to try it again. It looks more polished than ever but this game reminds me more of Championship Manager 4 than any CM/FM game, and it just seems utterly broken. Sure, the new data stuff is nice, and I understand that games need to evolve to stay relevant. I just don't understand this game at all, my players produce high quality chances but somehow the opposition always scores on their low quality bs or the hit me on the counter and my defenders seem unable to defend, they hit blasts from 20 meters, and we're not talking high quality teams here, just your bang average teams. I've set my tactic up to play to my players strengths and it isn't all that different from the FM16 or FM17 i played a few years ago. I didn't chose the most difficult team to play either, chose a team that already had players to do my trusty old 4-5-1 with DLP, wingers and such. It's just boring, I lose for no apparently logical reason and wasn't this supposed to be a game? As in Fun? Because this isn't my idea of fun, if I need to have some kind of advanced mathematical degree from the university of obtusity then it's not worth my time or my money. And all the damn nagging, these assistants and advisors, can you for the love of god please shut the ♥♥♥♥ up for five seconds? "Oh you can just adjust that in the settings"... please, the settings for this is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ A3 sheet of paper full of annoyance. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, worst game I've ever played in this series!

I feel ya. I started with FM21 and i so far find it more fun then FM23. No matter what i do with whatever moves i make as far as signings etc, no matter what tactics i use or how many i try out the other team seems to always score more goals and alot of them at the very end of the match. This iteration of FM seems less genuine and fair in comparison to FM21

[Boiled Hamster]

Originally posted by Spimmy:

At the end of the day the game should be fun

Damn straight, unfortunetly people (Including myself) tend to forget this.

[Spimmy]

Most fun i ever had in these games is when you had that stupid diablo formation that just destroyed

[StuTheMoose]

Originally posted by Spimmy:

At the end of the day the game should be fun

Yes, but what makes any game fun for an individual is entirely subjective.

[Gigi Daša]

For years now, FM isnt about football anymore but breaking the match engine = meta and exploits.

[Spud]

The worst elements of the game in my opinion are the dreadful 'interactions', team talks, press conferences, player talks, agent chats, even in match shouts, anywhere the game tries to simulate human to human communication it fails.

Repetitive, mundane and tedious, sometimes it's a lottery as to how those you are addressing will react, drawing away from home in a cup quarter final with 15 minutes to go, shout some encouragement and all of the players react with anger, when has that ever happened in a football match?

Team meetings are the worst, say the wrong thing, even though it's the logical thing to say, and team morale is shattered, say the right thing even by accident and they are all on cloud 9.

The complexity of human nature is never going to be something this or any game will be able to successfully simulate, so why do it? Stick to football, get that part right and gloss over the peripheral stuff. It's not like the match engine, training and tactics are all 100% perfect and the FM economic model is studied by experts from the stock exchange because of its uncanny ability to produce realistic results, there are serious issues all over the game and yet they keep shoehorning in more and more inane bloat.

It's still a decent game but after 30+ years of continuous development you'd think that the football bits would at least be amazing, the only really impressive part of the game is the database which requires zero creativity to assemble.

[Squaul]

Originally posted by Spimmy:

At the end of the day the game should be fun

True but there is a diff between "sim" and "classic game" .

Easier option is to make a more arcade version of this while keeping the more pushed and realistic version too.
Ask for more and better not for less and worst.