Semantic question: how does SPOILER actually talk about the danger?

[Talbot]

Ending spoilers.

So I was thinking about Renoir, because this game lives in my brain fulltime now, I guess, and his habit of parable/metaphor and I was wishing I'd paid more attention to his exact verbiage talking about the risks to Alicia and Aline.

Does he use the words "kill" or "die" ever, or does he stick to vaguer "lose yourself" type language that has some wiggle room?

I guess it doesn't really matter, even if he *does* say kill or die he's so prone to metaphor that you can read that however you like, but I was just curious.

[Apocalypse]

Yes, he is explicit about it.

[Ogami]

In the first talk between Renoir and Alicia in Lumire he literally says "Alicia. You´ll die " when Maelle/Alicia tells him she wants to stay in the canvas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ppZs_tujI
Timestamp: 6:07:35


Not that it really matters, in the ends its Maelle/Alicia´s decision and nobodys elses.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Ogami:

In the first talk between Renoir and Alicia in Lumire he literally says "Alicia. You´ll die " when Maelle/Alicia tells him she wants to stay in the canvas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ppZs_tujI
Timestamp: 6:07:35


Not that it really matters, in the ends its Maelle/Alicia´s decision and nobodys elses.

Thank you!

[Ratsplat]

While I would agree that danger clearly exists in this world when it comes to staying in a canvas for too long, nothing about Maelle's ending says that she is guaranteed to die. Renoir and Aline both have been in a canvas for longer than 67 years, and by that time Maelle's own painted family will likely all die from old age. So then the question becomes, what would Alicia do at that point?

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

While I would agree that danger clearly exists in this world when it comes to staying in a canvas for too long, nothing about Maelle's ending says that she is guaranteed to die. Renoir and Aline both have been in a canvas for longer than 67 years, and by that time Maelle's own painted family will likely all die from old age. So then the question becomes, what would Alicia do at that point?

Oh yeah the subject of this thread was just trying to figure out how Renoir sees it more than draw ending implications.

I think it's pretty strongly implied by the game, both raw facts and Clea's commentary, that Renoir is at minimum over-stating the physical risk and at maximum actually entirely wrong about it (if Aline's physical signs of deterioration are more about the chroma-starvation/battles than the duration).

For him to be 100% right, we need to believe that Clea is wrong, that her and Alicia's analysis of his savior complex is incorrect, and that the power gap between Aline and Alicia is sufficiently large that Alicia is in imminent danger despite a much shorter duration in the painting under much less adversarial conditions.

My more natural read is that Renoir Is *partially* correct, but blinded by his grief in his own way and is treating the problem with much more urgency than it requires, and exacerbating it in the process.

[Elsuya]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

While I would agree that danger clearly exists in this world when it comes to staying in a canvas for too long, nothing about Maelle's ending says that she is guaranteed to die. Renoir and Aline both have been in a canvas for longer than 67 years, and by that time Maelle's own painted family will likely all die from old age. So then the question becomes, what would Alicia do at that point?

It's Canvas' 67 years. Time flows diffrent in the canvas world it would seem.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Elsuya:

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

While I would agree that danger clearly exists in this world when it comes to staying in a canvas for too long, nothing about Maelle's ending says that she is guaranteed to die. Renoir and Aline both have been in a canvas for longer than 67 years, and by that time Maelle's own painted family will likely all die from old age. So then the question becomes, what would Alicia do at that point?

It's Canvas' 67 years. Time flows diffrent in the canvas world it would seem.

Yeah I tried to deduce the time dilation and while it's impossible to be sure, it seems to be a factor of somewhere between 1:100 and 1:200, to me. So 67 years in-painting is only about 1/3 to 2/3s of a year out of it, if my napkin math checks out.

Having said that, Renoir is also in an active war with a faction that's already successfully killed one Dessendre and crippled another, so he could still pretty easily die long before Maelle's killed by the canvas.

[TripSin]

You know what also kills you? Living outside of the canvas (assuming they have our same kind of mortality in their "real world"). Also, there's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ WAR going on that has already killed one of them and could very well prematurely end the rest of their lives.

[Some Rando]

Originally posted by TripSin:

You know what also kills you? Living outside of the canvas (assuming they have our same kind of mortality in their "real world"). Also, there's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ WAR going on that has already killed one of them and could very well prematurely end the rest of their lives.

Fair.

But I was wondering the same thing when I first heard Renoir say that, OP. To me that changes the nature of Maelle's ending maybe.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Some Rando:

Originally posted by TripSin:

You know what also kills you? Living outside of the canvas (assuming they have our same kind of mortality in their "real world"). Also, there's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ WAR going on that has already killed one of them and could very well prematurely end the rest of their lives.

Fair.

But I was wondering the same thing when I first heard Renoir say that, OP. To me that changes the nature of Maelle's ending maybe.

I say this knowing plenty of people will instantly disagree, but to me the *intent* of Maelle's ending is that she is playing with fire, but not automatically doomed. The darkest sequence of that ending is from the POV of Verso in a way where I think it's hard to take as 100% literal, but it still speaks to the dangerous game she's playing.

Whether it ultimately kills her depends on her own maturity, and to what extent if any her friends and family are able to stop her.

But she's not Aline. She has much more "legitimate" ties to Lumiere having spent just as much time there as IRL (and not in the deliberately unhealthy way her mother did), and unlike her mother her IRL body is pretty badly damaged and canonically in near-constant pain. Her being in the Canvas *could* be a good thing for her, if she could learn to moderate it or mitigate the risks... but that's a vey big if, and is at best a longshot.

[Ratsplat]

I'm also curious what Renoir meant by "I will leave the light on for you."

Which is also a bit funny considering the canvas is in some cave now. He probably thought she'd still be in the atelier. Though she did tell him she hid it...

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

I'm also curious what Renoir meant by "I will leave the light on for you."

Which is also a bit funny considering the canvas is in some cave now. He probably thought she'd still be in the atelier. Though she did tell him she hid it...

I think he's just being metaphorical of "you're welcome back any time, come home soon."

However, I do think the Atelier contributes to a very subtle detail that throws some of his honesty into question, as when he shows Aline's collapse it's in the Atelier... which is *not* where she'd need to be to access the painting at that moment of time, meaning it's either not real-time (though circumstances imply it is) or a total fabrication.

[Ratsplat]

Originally posted by Talbot:

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

I'm also curious what Renoir meant by "I will leave the light on for you."

Which is also a bit funny considering the canvas is in some cave now. He probably thought she'd still be in the atelier. Though she did tell him she hid it...

I think he's just being metaphorical of "you're welcome back any time, come home soon."

However, I do think the Atelier contributes to a very subtle detail that throws some of his honesty into question, as when he shows Aline's collapse it's in the Atelier... which is *not* where she'd need to be to access the painting at that moment of time, meaning it's either not real-time (though circumstances imply it is) or a total fabrication.

Yeah. Location can be a bit silly unless he has the ability to show any point in the manor through the portal. Other oddities is that if it was real time, she should be frozen in time thanks to time dilation. So I think it's just simply him projecting his memories of her. The words he used sorta implies that its a memory and not a live feed. "This is what I have to deal with!"

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

Originally posted by Talbot:

I think he's just being metaphorical of "you're welcome back any time, come home soon."

However, I do think the Atelier contributes to a very subtle detail that throws some of his honesty into question, as when he shows Aline's collapse it's in the Atelier... which is *not* where she'd need to be to access the painting at that moment of time, meaning it's either not real-time (though circumstances imply it is) or a total fabrication.

Yeah. Location can be a bit silly unless he has the ability to show any point in the manor through the portal. Other oddities is that if it was real time, she should be frozen in time thanks to time dilation. So I think it's just simply him projecting his memories of her. The words he used sorta implies that its a memory and not a live feed. "This is what I have to deal with!"

That introduces its own questions, then, of when exactly he saw that, because she's certainly not at that level of physical breakdown when we see her in Monolith Year 49, and as far as we know, he hasn't been out of the painting since himself.

[Ratsplat]

Originally posted by Talbot:

That introduces its own questions, then, of when exactly he saw that, because she's certainly not at that level of physical breakdown when we see her in Monolith Year 49, and as far as we know, he hasn't been out of the painting since himself.

Both of them have been in paintings for much longer than the Verso painting. He has also seen Aline doing her thing for quite some time. And so, it almost makes me start to think that Aline has created multiple fake families and lives inside of various paintings (or she's gone in and out of this painting 100+ years at a time, looking like a zombie after each departure). If this painting was the very first, she'd have never shown any signs of illness.

Also, the whole thing comes down to 'this canvas has his soul in it!' But I've yet to see what exactly the soul's purpose is outside of maintaining the canvas. Aline seemingly didn't care about the world, nor gestrals, nor the grandis. Everything that she cared about, she made herself. Painted family, the Lumerians. And if she made Painted Verso from her memories of him, then why does she need the soul at all?