Clair Obscur: Expedition 33

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33

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Quaiv May 25 @ 3:38pm
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So genocide is okay if it makes powerful people feel better?
Spoilers ahead!

You have a rich (big mansion) family with god-like superpowers and they have a hard time coping with the loss of their son/brother. Their selfish struggle aleady caused pain and suffering for thousands of people, and then the ultimate solution is to literally eradicate everyone else just to find some peace of mind?!

Yes, I am aware that they have created the canvas world, but it is still pretty f'd up that the game frames the genocide ending as the positive one. Also very ironic is that the fictional story of a singleplayer RPG frames escapism as something that should be avoided at all cost.
Last edited by Quaiv; May 25 @ 3:42pm
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Wiegs May 25 @ 3:47pm 
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It's not really a genocide because none of them is real. They're paintings. They just look real.

Also escapism is bad when it's to the point where it makes you lose your grip on reality.
Me May 25 @ 3:52pm 
The game doesn't really frame it as a bad ending. Going with Verso's ending is the good ending for the family, and the bad ending for everyone else. Maelle's ending is the good ending for everyone else, but the bad ending for the family.

It really comes down to what Alicia wrote in her letter (I'll paraphrase, because I don't remember the exact words) "We all believe our family deserve happiness, but yours believe only they do." Either you only believe the one family deserves a good ending, or you believe everyone does, though that will come at the expense of the one family.
Adun May 25 @ 3:52pm 
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Harsh words for what is basically the parent deleting your computer game because you spend far too much time in it.
Azzurra May 25 @ 3:53pm 
You can find it as imoral as you like, but as long as it is not regulated by any law the creator will always have full rights over his creations

and btw the inhabitants of Lumière were almost all genocided long before the possibility of choosing the end(end of act 2)
Originally posted by Wiegs:
It's not really a genocide because none of them is real. They're paintings. They just look real.

Also escapism is bad when it's to the point where it makes you lose your grip on reality.

If they were only painting and weren't real, then they couldn't act any differently than how they are created to act.

Painted Verso explicitly going against his creator (Aline the Paintress') will by seeking death rather than the eternal life she has granted him proves that they have free will and, thus, sentience.

They are created beings same as you and I are. (If you follow any organized religion that believes in a supreme deity that created humanity.)

If they were simply paintings, then Painted Verso - and for that matter Painted Alicia - would never have been able to be self aware enough to seek their own destruction/ending.

All of the "painted" family members Renoit, Alicia, Verso and Alicia were painted by Aline herself as a part of her escapism.

What happens in the game if you choose the Verso ending is, morally, no different than if Yahweh, Allah, (fill in the blank) just got tired of the whole humanity experience and erased us.
Originally posted by Azzurra:
You can find it as imoral as you like, but as long as it is not regulated by any law the creator will always have full rights over his creations

and btw the inhabitants of Lumière were almost all genocided long before the possibility of choosing the end(end of act 2)

Not quite.

HUMANS were...by yet another god/painter. Renoit genocided all of the HUMANS in the world. (And was in the process of destroying everything else.) The Verso ending added the Gestrals and Gladis, who are no less sentient in the game.
Ogami May 25 @ 3:57pm 
Originally posted by Wiegs:
It's not really a genocide because none of them is real. They're paintings. They just look real.

Uhu. And if some entity ( god, aliens, whatever) suddenly would appear on earth and tells us they created humanity so its its ok to erase us all since we are "not real" you would be
"oki doki go right ahead!".

At the point where those "created" beings become selfaware and have their own dreams, ambitions, feelings and thoughts with no outer influence they are "alive".
The origin how they came to be does not matter anymore at that point.
Last edited by Ogami; May 25 @ 3:59pm
Quaiv May 25 @ 4:01pm 
Originally posted by Wiegs:
It's not really a genocide because none of them is real. They're paintings. They just look real.

Also escapism is bad when it's to the point where it makes you lose your grip on reality.
The issue is that for 99% of the game the others are depicted as being very much real individuals with hopes and purpose. At this point it does not matter anymore how they were created, and eradicating them for a selfish cause is just evil.

Also Alicia is scarred for life with a serious disability, why not allow her the comfort of living a less burdened life in an alternative universe?
Last edited by Quaiv; May 25 @ 4:06pm
Ogami May 25 @ 4:01pm 
Originally posted by ObiWankANob:
Yall really grasping at paper straws looking from something to criticise the game. To farm jester stickers. Bunch of clowns.

This time-wasting must be stopped.

?? Where is anyone criticising the game? We are just discussing the endings which has happened basically since day 2-3 after release when the first few people finished the game.
Riyshn May 25 @ 4:02pm 
Originally posted by Wiegs:
It's not really a genocide because none of them is real. They're paintings. They just look real.

Also escapism is bad when it's to the point where it makes you lose your grip on reality.
Being artificial does not inherently make something less real or valuable. Nothing in the game indicates that the people in the canvas think or feel any differently than people from the "real world", Painters just happen to have godlike power over them.
Ogami May 25 @ 4:05pm 
Originally posted by Riyshn:
Being artificial does not inherently make something less real or valuable. Nothing in the game indicates that the people in the canvas think or feel any differently than people from the "real world", Painters just happen to have godlike power over them.

Plus there is this small problem that the "real" world is most likely "fake" too.
If you look outside the mansion windows there is nothing but fog past the mansion grounds, same in the Verso ending which is on a sunny day outside and still, everything farther then 20 meters or so away is covered in fog.
Also according to his gravestone Verso died on "December 33th 1905".
There are quiet a few indications that we are dealing with a fake world inside a fake world scenario here. Seems the writers liked Inception.
:lunar2019grinningpig:

Which actually would present a nice paradox, if the "painters" and their world is fake too, why would you choose them over the canvas world?
BeefoTheBold May 25 @ 4:13pm 
Originally posted by Riyshn:
Originally posted by Wiegs:
It's not really a genocide because none of them is real. They're paintings. They just look real.

Also escapism is bad when it's to the point where it makes you lose your grip on reality.
Being artificial does not inherently make something less real or valuable. Nothing in the game indicates that the people in the canvas think or feel any differently than people from the "real world", Painters just happen to have godlike power over them.

This is a concept that isn't new to this game either.

"There is no right to deny freedom to any object with a mind advanced enough to grasp the concept and desire the state."
-Isaac Asimov from the classic Sci Fi novel "Bicentennial Man"

The idea that created minds, in other words artificial life, could advance far enough that they have rights - in other words that they've achieved sentience - is hardly a new one.

The minds of the beings in the painting (most of them) pretty clearly desire to go on living and are clearly willing to fight for the ability to do so. That all of the people of Lumiere think (incorrectly) the Paintress is responsible for their long, slow genocide and are willing to kill her to save themselves is yet more proof that they are intelligent enough to be real, thinking consciousnesses.

Plenty of other games explore the concept that beings created by others are alive. The Geth in the Mass Effect universe for example.
Last edited by BeefoTheBold; May 25 @ 4:14pm
BigBoss May 25 @ 4:18pm 
Genocide is an act that applies solely to humans. The inhabitants of the canvas are paintings, not human. Good try tho.
Last edited by BigBoss; May 25 @ 4:18pm
Me May 25 @ 4:21pm 
Originally posted by BigBoss:
Genocide is an act that applies solely to humans. The inhabitants of the canvas are paintings, not human. Good try tho.
That probably wouldn't apply in a fictional, fantasy setting. That's like saying that murdering all the humans is genocide, but murdering all the elves isn't.
Originally posted by BigBoss:
Genocide is an act that applies solely to humans. The inhabitants of the canvas are paintings, not human. Good try tho.

I would disagree, and so would the definition of the word. Genocide, by definition is

"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

That's from the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word. Nowhere in there does it specify humans. It says PEOPLE.

IMO, people is defined by whether or not they have sentience. It is what separates killing a cow from killing a self-aware being. If an alien species made first contact with us tomorrow, they would have sentience and wiping them all out with nukes as soon as we possibly could would be an act of genocide against them.

You can call the various races in the painting whatever you want but all of them, Lumerians, Gestrals and Grandis alike all clearly are thinking beings with individual preferences, desires, goals, etc.

Edit: Or, as the post above this one says, substitute elves if you want in a fantasy setting. It would still be a genocide to wipe them all out in setting even if they aren't human.
Last edited by BeefoTheBold; May 25 @ 4:26pm
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