Endless Towers gives context to the ending - spoilers

[Ulot The Nub]

Endless Towers is a damn slog to finish (yet a feeling of extreme satisfaction when you do it!), but the conversation between Maelle/Alina and Clea (or essence meant to represent clea) adds a lot of context I think. Also provides context that, contrary to their assertions, nobody is actually processing grief properly.

Ditto the mother/Paintress. She is in the canvas as a form of escapism.
Yet Renoir hasn't processed it either, despite claiming he has. As the fading girl points out, Renoir is so afraid of losing anyone again, he is turning into a tyrant, dominating everyone, because only he has the strength to keep the family together. Yet that desire to dominate to prevent tragedy is just another piece of evidence he actually hasn't processed grief.

Even Clea, she claims to have gotten over it, but has she? She wants her family reunited, not to process grief, but to help her exact vengeance. She thinks executing her wrath and revenge upon the Writers will provide her closure, but it won't.

All three are embracing their own form of escapism. Maelle/Alina is now learning those lessons. She wants to remain in the canvas not just to be with her brother, but because in the canvas, SHE MATTERS. she doesn't think she matters outside the canvas, she's always second (or third) best. If she'd live in the real world she'd learn over time that wasn't true, but she wants to embrace the escapism everyone else does.

That's why the ending, for all the (occasionally justified) criticism to me makes sense. Its not about good triumphing over evil, but about if this family which has suffered so much will ever find peace. In Alica/Maelle's ending, they don't. The cycle not only perpetuates, it worsens. Renoir tells himself the same lies he told himself when his wife first did the escapism. He won't stay away forever, and the cycle will begin anew. Clea will still be deprived of her revenge. The mother will now still be grief stricken, but now substantially weaker. Meanwhile the new Paintress grows even more selfish and addicted to the power.

Whereas with Verso's ending, the only thing that happens is the family finally is in a position to move on. They are united again, and they've all accepted Verso is gone and not coming back. They realize the only way forward is together.

I don't know if Renoir's Drafts/Abyss contradicts this or enhances it, but I think the discussion after Endless Towers shows them all as tragic figures who know what must be done, but resist doing so.

[BeefoTheBold]

For me, it wasn't that the endings didn't make sense. They do. They are intellectually consistent with how the characters would act.

But the problem that I have with the endings is that it feels like I, the player behind the characters, has accomplished precisely d***. I did not get to achieve any of the things that the story made ME care about by the end.

I wanted to save the human race...and you can, but arguably by turning Maelle into an addict doomed to die who has enslaved Verso and has a debatable amount of control over everybody else. She also appears to have created a new, young version of Verso who will survive after old Verso perishes? I may be wrong on who that is? And when she dies, everyone else will die too. Yay?

I wanted to help Verso find peace...and you can, but at the cost of literally everybody else in the game except for the Painter family who, outside of Maelle, I have not been given much of a reason to give half a wet s*** about. They're all a bunch of selfish ---holes. So mass genocide - even of party members that we like - to save four people who the game doesn't give us much reason to care for. Yay?

In my opinion, there should be a third option. The game can make you work like hell to get to that third option. I sure as heck did by getting 100% achievements. But you should be able to get an ending where the Painter family finds enough personal growth to find a solution that spares the canvas and returns at least all the Expedition 33 members and a few key NPC's like Sciel's husband to life.

Instead, the "bad" ending is saving everybody the game actually gives you an incentive to care for.

[toughnails]

Yeah, I really dislike the positive framing of Verso's ending vs Maelle's. Feels like a slap in the face for daring to be invested in this fictional world and its characters.

[Ratsplat]

Renoir is also the only one stating the dangers of the canvasses. While it is likely that they ARE dangerous in some way, it is also very possible that he is over exaggerating the dangers to help build his case. I don't think Aline, Clea, or even Alicia bring up the dangers. And Verso only does since he's been listening to Renoir.

If anything, I would think that the canvasses are detrimental for mental health, while barely affecting physical health. Alicia in Verso's ending is 'perfectly' fine physically (burns aside), but I can only imagine how her mental health is doing after having experienced living to 16 twice now. And half of her is effectively dead as well.

[AirSniffer]

Yeah but Maelle is not "Alina"

[toughnails]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

Renoir is also the only one stating the dangers of the canvasses. While it is likely that they ARE dangerous in some way, it is also very possible that he is over exaggerating the dangers to help build his case.

You can see Aline coughing her lungs out after she helps you beat Renoir in the final battle, how tf did you miss that? This is not meant to be vague at all lmao

[parent child bowl]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

Renoir is also the only one stating the dangers of the canvasses. While it is likely that they ARE dangerous in some way, it is also very possible that he is over exaggerating the dangers to help build his case.

Renoir experienced first hand how dangerous the canvases are since he used to be an "addict". He was saved by Aline that should have known better since she has been the one in Renoir's shoes before.

As far as we know, Renoir is the only one of the five family members that has experienced and overcome (with help) the addiction.

[BeefoTheBold]

Originally posted by parent child bowl:

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

Renoir is also the only one stating the dangers of the canvasses. While it is likely that they ARE dangerous in some way, it is also very possible that he is over exaggerating the dangers to help build his case.

Renoir experienced first hand how dangerous the canvases are since he used to be an "addict". He was saved by Aline that should have known better since she has been the one in Renoir's shoes before.

As far as we know, Renoir is the only one of the five family members that has experienced and overcome (with help) the addiction.

I'm not a particularly religious type, but I DID kind of like the idea that gods can become addicted to an unhealthy extent to their creations.

Maybe the reason why our current world is so much in the toilet is because we have a Painter who, if they exist, has basically lost their marbles from being in our canvas for to long. :-)~~

[parent child bowl]

Originally posted by toughnails:

Yeah, I really dislike the positive framing of Verso's ending vs Maelle's. Feels like a slap in the face for daring to be invested in this fictional world and its characters.

I see the ending as the only way to end the cycle of suffering of the people in the canvas. It's also fast and without suffering.

Sure, there could have been an ending where Aline and Alicia stopped being ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and the canvas survives, but the way those two characters acted and have been developed over the course of the game, it would have been hard to buy for me.

[Ulot The Nub]

Originally posted by toughnails:

Yeah, I really dislike the positive framing of Verso's ending vs Maelle's. Feels like a slap in the face for daring to be invested in this fictional world and its characters.

That's a fair criticism of what they were going for. I'm not someone who is 100% biased and a stan. I just respect what they were going for.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by BeefoTheBold:

But the problem that I have with the endings is that it feels like I, the player behind the characters, has accomplished precisely d***. I did not get to achieve any of the things that the story made ME care about by the end.

Ahhhh, that makes a lot of sense, even the split makes sense. Some players went into it for wanting to experience the game and understand it. And they are somewhat satisfied to even incredible happy that even after the ending you can think about the game and find new nuances.

The guys who just searched for escapism and wanted to safe the world, got nothing outside a stupid lecture out of it.

[Ulot The Nub]

Originally posted by AirSniffer:

Yeah but Maelle is not "Alina"

Sorry,I had a mental slip. Feel better about yourself now?