Attempting to ballpark the time dilation in-painting.

[Talbot]

This started as a reply in a different thread, but I think it's a topic worthy of its own thread and would value the input of smarter people than me fine-tuning the theory/estimates/math involved. I don't think there's any real risk of us landing on an exact figure, but even just getting into the ballpark seems useful.

This started as an attempt to evaluate whether or not time moves in the Canvas when painters aren't present, based partly on Esquie and Francoise's mentions that Clea hadn't visited in "centuries."

Here's what I've got so far:

At the end of the game, we know Renoir specifically was in the painting for 67 in-painting years, but we can't evaluate if he aged any because we never see him before he goes in.

We do see Alicia before and after she spends 16 in-painting years in there, and she looks the same, with no visible signs of aging so safe to assume that 16 painting years = less than two or so real years, and possibly a lot less. If it were more, presumably she'd look noticeably different; she's pretty exactly in the middle of puberty.

We can infer from Clea's sense of annoyance/urgency at getting her parents out of the painting that the time dilation is not *too* extreme; she wouldn't care if they'd only been in there for a day or two, presumably.

It *seems* based on the state of the mansion that the fire was at most months, not years ago, but also far enough removed that Alicia is healed/scarred and not wearing bandages, which the extent of her scarring suggests would have been at least a multi-month healing process.

I think it's reasonable to assume, then, that the fire was somewhere between four to eight months before Alicia enters the painting.

That would be a much more useful estimate if we knew how long Aline had been in before Renoir jumped in. But I think we can make an educated guess. She painted Verso to be the same age, and with roughly the same memories, as her dead 27 year old son. He is roughly 100 when we meet him in game, so presumably that was in the ballpark of 72 years ago, five or six years or so before the fracture.

If we use that estimate, then, and assume Aline hopped into the canvas pretty immediately following Verso's death, then 72 Canvas years = somewhere between 4-8 months, meaning a day in real life is equivalent to somewhere between 108-216 days in the Canvas. That feels plausible for the backstory as we know it (i.e., Aline would have been in it for about a week before Renoir decided he needed to get involved, and Alicia's total time in the canvas at a month or two).

Extrapolating that out on both ends:

If it's closer to four months, that's about 216 canvas years for every real year.

If it's closer to eight months, that's about 108 canvas years for every real year.

Those estimates only really help us if we can ballpark when we think Verso and Clea stopped visiting, though, which is harder to do. I'm gonna arbitrarily say that Verso probably stopped painting/outgrew this childish world of his in his early to mid teens. Soul Verso seems like he's in the 10-13 range to me (could be younger, probably not older) but presumably that's the age he was when he started, not when he finished.

For the sake of ballparking, we'll say he stopped visiting at 14, twelve years before he died.

If we assume (again) that Clea's last visit was roughly the same time as his, that puts it at somewhere between 1260 to 2520 in-Canvas years ago, which is an annoying amount of time for our purposes because it's right in the middle ground of what you might colloquially call either "centuries" or "millennia" if you were talking about it in passing.

So, doesn't actually answer how time keeps moving while there's no Dessendres around, though I'm glad I tried and at least feel like I have a better (if flawed) ballpark of what the time dilation looks like now.

It does seem like that rate is a little too crisp for all off the "centuries' Francoise and Esquie refer to have happened with a Dessendre present in the painting, to me, but not by enough to be considered definitive. It's possible and maybe even likely that Clea stopped visiting the painting way before Verso did, but if we allow that time only moves when one of them is there, Verso popping in for a few hours a couple days per week to play with Esquie and Monoco would take a really long time to add up to centuries.

[Crimsomrider]

The game's story occurs through several hours in realtime, not days or weeks or even months. Because when Alicia went to sleep and by the time she woke up she was surprised her parents were still in there, which is just several hours of sleep.

Also in front of the Canvas is a table with food and a tiny Lumiere cake, therefore Aline had breakfast there every day before hoping in and we know she kept doing this regularly on a daily basis because apart from Renoir outright stating she kept doing this every day, her very own log also mentions that her heart only gets to beat for a few moments a day whenever she is inside.

So that very morning he had enough, went in and they kept each other in a stalemate for over 67 years inside (which is just several hours since morning). Even Clea herself wasn't bothered at all by them being inside since they remained far longer in other canvases, but she was in a rush to do something and didn't expect it would take as long as it needed for Renoir to get out, which is why she also left the house for a bit after leaving Alicia inside.

Also Esquie is far from a reliable narrator, as due to his naive childlike innocence he can't even maintain his own recent memories accurately. Like when he gets mad at Renoir, but then the next camp he suddenly says he could never ever be mad whatsoever. Same with Sciel, he recognizes her initially but then doubts himself if he ever knew her to begin with in the next conversation with Verso. What may appear as centuries to him could actually be thousands of years, he is simply not a reliable source of information.

Ultimately a few hours equals almost a century.

The story is also not without its errors and therefore some things are just not accurate at all given their timeframe or even location. For example the real Manor has the Monolith painted on the wall with the age 33 when Alicia wakes up. It is simply impossible for that painting to exist during that time period because Aline and Renoir were still stuck in there for half a century by that point and Clea certainly didn't paint it either, it happens 16 Monolith years later.

Naturally the real Manor is just the same exact location as the one we use inside the Canvas, with some extra assets adjusted to block off exploration and give the illusion of reality, but still... some details were completely missed.

[Ratsplat]

So this will tie into another thread that I had made. It is very much possible that time either stops, or moves very slowly inside of a canvas if no painter is currently powering it. My personal estimate is that Aline was in the canvas for ~200 years before the fracture happened.

Essentially, when the children stopped using the canvas for fun, time didn't move within it. When Verso dies then Aline goes in, time once again moves for everything. Francois' wait begins when Aline enters, and by time the party meets with him, I'd say 200-300 years was how long he has waited in reality.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Crimsomrider:

The game's story occurs through several hours in realtime, not days or weeks or even months. Because when Alicia went to sleep and by the time she woke up she was surprised her parents were still in there, which is just several hours of sleep.

Her dialogue does not indicate surprise at all, IMO. The first thing she says is "I'm worried, they've been in there so long."

Clea also implies that being in there so long is the reason Aline is no longer the head of the Painter's Council, which suggests it's been a lot longer than a day.

The dialogue also makes it clear that Alicia knows vaguely about who Painted Verso is, which means that Clea had to have gone in, come out, and talked to her about it prior to Alicia going to sleep, which is possible but a pretty narrow time window if we're saying it's been less than a day and Alicia was asleep for most of it.

Also in front of the Canvas is a table with food and a tiny Lumiere cake, therefore Aline had breakfast there every day before hoping in and we know she kept doing this regularly on a daily basis because apart from Renoir outright stating she kept doing this every day, her very own log also mentions that her heart only gets to beat for a few moments a day whenever she is inside.

How do we know that's not Clea's breakfast?

Also, this interpretation of the timeline doesn't make much sense for Clea's story. If they've been in there for less than a day, why the urgency to get them out to help fight the writers? That would also mean that Clea had popped in and out at least three times in that short timespan, too, since we know she appears at minimum three times years and years apart to Verso.

I'm pretty sure it's meant to be a lot longer than a day. If it isn't, then I also think Renoir becomes a lot more villainous/unreasonable; letting your spouse grieve in escapism for *one day* is nothing.

[Apocalypse]

We do not know how advanced the healing magic in the real world is or if they have advanced tools to heal, so it might have been days or months since Versos death. Though I think you are on point with months.

[Omegatherion]

If Aline was in there for multiple days her real body would have died of dehydration. Unless you can sustain your outside body by eating in-Canvas but we don't know if that works somehow.
So we have to assume that she and Renoir have only been in there for, at max, 1 or 2 days.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

So this will tie into another thread that I had made. It is very much possible that time either stops, or moves very slowly inside of a canvas if no painter is currently powering it. My personal estimate is that Aline was in the canvas for ~200 years before the fracture happened.

Essentially, when the children stopped using the canvas for fun, time didn't move within it. When Verso dies then Aline goes in, time once again moves for everything. Francois' wait begins when Aline enters, and by time the party meets with him, I'd say 200-300 years was how long he has waited in reality.

I think time stopping when there's no painter is possible, and is actually what started this exercise, but hard to pinpoint with enough precision to be confident either way.

Your timeline feels possible, but I thought Painted Verso was only about 100, which would mean Aline was "only" in there for five (if that 100 includes his 27 years of "real" Verso memories) or thirty-two (if not) years before Renoir jumped in and started a-fracturing.

[Ratsplat]

The main thing is that Clea likely hasn't been in the canvas for fun for anywhere between 10-20 years. Francois hasn't seen her for centuries. I feel that if time was always flowing, then it would have stated millennia instead of centuries.

Another thing I had brought up is that painters may be able to time travel of sorts, which helps explain why a relatively short amount of time has passed within the canvas by time Aline came back in during the final battle. Time travel in the sense that they can choose to a certain point a time period to enter. Or, if we take it very literal, then we could say that 5-10 minutes in real life is 1+ days in the canvas (which actually seems like a bad timescale.) if her return showed accurate dilation.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Omegatherion:

If Aline was in there for multiple days her real body would have died of dehydration. Unless you can sustain your outside body by eating in-Canvas but we don't know if that works somehow.
So we have to assume that she and Renoir have only been in there for, at max, 1 or 2 days.

I think with the amount of magic already involved that's pretty tough to assume in either direction.

Clea's implication that Aline's retreat into the painting is why she's not the head of the Painter's Guild anymore also kinda suggests a longer timeframe.

The way the physical danger is presented seems more like a toll on the body from exertion/chroma use, not physical resource deprivation.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

The main thing is that Clea likely hasn't been in the canvas for fun for anywhere between 10-20 years. Francois hasn't seen her for centuries. I feel that if time was always flowing, then it would have stated millennia instead of centuries.

Another thing I had brought up is that painters may be able to time travel of sorts, which helps explain why a relatively short amount of time has passed within the canvas by time Aline came back in during the final battle. Time travel in the sense that they can choose to a certain point a time period to enter. Or, if we take it very literal, then we could say that 5-10 minutes in real life is 1+ days in the canvas (which actually seems like a bad timescale.) if her return showed accurate dilation.

I was frustrated by my math returning a result of 1200-2400ish in-painting years, because that's an amount of time that feels a little high to call centuries while still a little low to call millennia, and therefore didn't make me feel like it hinted in either direction.

[Omegatherion]

Originally posted by Talbot:

Clea's implication that Aline's retreat into the painting is why she's not the head of the Painter's Guild anymore also kinda suggests a longer timeframe.

Could be the case. But it could also mean that Aline was so occupied with the Canvas that she neglected her duties for too long and got removed from her position. And at some point after that she went into the Canvas again to start the events of the games story.

[Ratsplat]

Originally posted by Talbot:

Your timeline feels possible, but I thought Painted Verso was only about 100, which would mean Aline was "only" in there for five (if that 100 includes his 27 years of "real" Verso memories) or thirty-two (if not) years before Renoir jumped in and started a-fracturing.

Double post, but now that I'm focused on this part, there's two things. One, Verso likely lied to hide his real age, which is something he has done over and over. Would be weird to say that he has been ~30 years old for 200 years by that point. And two, him only being 100 years old would be weird, since that would imply that the Fracture happened very very quickly. Renoir wouldn't have gone in and Fractured everything if Aline had only just barely gone in. He went in after seeing her going in and staying for far too long. We just don't know how she spent her time within the canvas before the fracture. Did she let Verso grow up within the canvas, or did she have her painted family stay the same age for hundreds of years?

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Omegatherion:

Originally posted by Talbot:

Clea's implication that Aline's retreat into the painting is why she's not the head of the Painter's Guild anymore also kinda suggests a longer timeframe.

Could be the case. But it could also mean that Aline was so occupied with the Canvas that she neglected her duties for too long and got removed from her position. And at some point after that she went into the Canvas again to start the events of the games story.

I feel like the game pretty strongly implies that she never left once entering, but I suppose that's possible.

Double post, but now that I'm focused on this part, there's two things. One, Verso likely lied to hide his real age, which is something he has done over and over. Would be weird to say that he has been ~30 years old for 200 years by that point. And two, him only being 100 years old would be weird, since that would imply that the Fracture happened very very quickly. Renoir wouldn't have gone in and Fractured everything if Aline had only just barely gone in. He went in after seeing her going in and staying for far too long. We just don't know how she spent her time within the canvas before the fracture. Did she let Verso grow up within the canvas, or did she have her painted family stay the same age for hundreds of years?

We know Painted Verso has Aline's best approximation of real Verso's memories, so it seems likely he was painted at age 27, rather than having his own separate upbringing.

The rest of this is, annoyingly, dependent on the answer we're looking for. How long it takes for Renoir to jump in depends on the time dilation; if my napkin math is right and it's between 100 to 200 days for every one day out-of-Canvas, five years pre-fracture is somewhere in the 5-9 day range, which seems like a plausible amount of time for him to go "ok, that's too long," especially if Clea and Maelle are right about his pathological savior complex.

If it's less, then yeah, he probably doesn't hop in after just a day or two, so she'd need to have been there longer.

I *feel* like Verso mentions being about 100ish in a conversation with either Esquie or Monoco at some point, who would know if he was lying, but I could be wrong. We do know he didn't know he was immortal until Expedition Zero, though, which suggests he can't have been an adult in Lumiere for *too* long pre-Fracture without being a complete idiot.

[Crimsomrider]

Originally posted by Talbot:

Clea also implies that being in there so long is the reason Aline is no longer the head of the Painter's Council, which suggests it's been a lot longer than a day.

No, it's because she kept completely neglecting her duties every single day to focus on the canvas. Nothing else mattered to her because she was dead inside and the Canvas was the only thing allowing her to feel alive each day.

Literally why Renoir entered the Canvas as well, he could not spend a single day more with 'living corpses'.

Originally posted by Talbot:

The dialogue also makes it clear that Alicia knows vaguely about who Painted Verso is, which means that Clea had to have gone in, come out, and talked to her about it prior to Alicia going to sleep, which is possible but a pretty narrow time window if we're saying it's been less than a day and Alicia was asleep for most of it.

Naturally she knows about Verso because Aline was doing this every day, everyone knew what she was doing inside the Canvas.

Originally posted by Talbot:

How do we know that's not Clea's breakfast?

Because it's Aline herself who kept entering the Canvas on a daily basis.

Clea isn't the one obsessed with the Canvas nor cares about it. Why would she of all people move a table in there to have breakfast, even more so make a Lumiere cake too.

Originally posted by Talbot:

I'm pretty sure it's meant to be a lot longer than a day. If it isn't, then I also think Renoir becomes a lot more villainous/unreasonable; letting your spouse grieve in escapism for *one day* is nothing.

It's not one day though, she's been doing this every day for quite a while. But after a while even he simply couldn't take a single day more of seeing his family merely existing as shadows and decided enough was enough.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Crimsomrider:

It's not one day though, she's been doing this every day for quite a while. But after a while even he simply couldn't take a single day more of seeing his family merely existing as shadows and decided enough was enough.

I didn't realize your interpretation was that she'd been hopping in and out, that's interesting.

I don't think it's what the game primarily suggests, but it's a possibility I hadn't considered.

I think it does beg the question of why Renoir didn't just destroy the Canvas during one of her bathroom breaks, though, if she was periodically leaving it.

[Crimsomrider]

Not really an interpretation, it's what Renoir himself says at the end and what her own journal says too.

• Renoir at the very end when he shows Aline suffering; 'This is what I see every day. I cannot spend another day with living corpses.'
  
• Aline's own journal inside the Canvas; '...I know what he'll say, but this is the first time I've felt any surcease. For a few moments a day, my heart beats again...'

Naturally he gave her space for quite some time, but eventually even he couldn't take it anymore. Just like Aline he also is dealing with grief, but it's his fear of losing yet another family member that drives him forward throughout the story.