Discussion about E33's world and endings (massive spoilers)

[Umie]

so the canvas is basically a quantum computer interfaced with the painter? the painted entities are basically just AI NPCs? this is just their "steampunk" version of VR right? the people inside the painting are just constructs right?

any more details about the writer vs painter war?

I knew from mid Act 1 that this was gonna be some "simulation" or Matrix. that it was a manifestation of a person's grief doesn't make it any more acceptable as a plot device. it was well done for sure, but I was just bummed out that I was right. I feel every sci fi thing these days is either multiverse, time travel, or simulation BS. I'm tired boss.

why would anyone go with Maelle's ending? people who know her in the real world would suffer immensely as she basically uploads herself to die while maintaining a bunch of NPCs (and I guess whatever spiritual element remains of Verso).

so overall I'm tired of this simulation stuff and it's been overdone. I feel Pantheon did it a lot better.

[Talbot]

I don't think the game really supports the idea that the painted entities are AI or NPCs, but a lot of people sure seem to!

The game treats them much more like Adam and Eve than it does like Chat GPT, though. They're created by nigh-omnipotent godike beings, but they have their own autonomy, goals, dreams, pains, etc. And pretty frequently defy their creators, often to tragic results.

FWIW, most of the characters who'd be most qualified to judge it seem to consider them real people, including Soul Verso, Real Renoir, and most of the other Dessendres of any flavor with the noteworthy exceptions of Painted Clea and Painted Verso, who probably not so coincidentally are also the two that want to kill themselves.

[HellDuke]

Originally posted by Talbot:

I don't think the game really supports the idea that the painted entities are AI or NPCs, but a lot of people sure seem to!

The game treats them much more like Adam and Eve than it does like Chat GPT, though. They're created by nigh-omnipotent godike beings, but they have their own autonomy, goals, dreams, pains, etc. And pretty frequently defy their creators, often to tragic results.

FWIW, most of the characters who'd be most qualified to judge it seem to consider them real people, including Soul Verso, Real Renoir, and most of the other Dessendres of any flavor with the noteworthy exceptions of Painted Clea and Painted Verso, who probably not so coincidentally are also the two that want to kill themselves.

I am not too sure about that. I was all too weary about the fact that not a single thing in the canvas (during the story or prior) has ever happened without a painter. So if a living painter interacting is mandatory for the lives to go on, now matter how many decisions they make, is it really autonamous? Instead of chatGPT, think about The Sims. You create them and if you leave the game untouched, they will make their decisions. That does not make them autonamous self-aware creatures. The canvas can be seen as a more complex set of rules governing their choices that can all be traced to the mindset of the creator of all of these people — Aline (note that Lumiere and the people have nothing to do with Verso, they are uniquely Alines) which mimics her attachment and fight to remain attached.

Another hint to me is Maeles ending. We see 2 obvious examples where the painter literaly overrides their free will. Both Verso and Gustave are not who they were, but what Maele wanted them to be. Its not their free will, it's her will.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by HellDuke:

Originally posted by Talbot:

I don't think the game really supports the idea that the painted entities are AI or NPCs, but a lot of people sure seem to!

The game treats them much more like Adam and Eve than it does like Chat GPT, though. They're created by nigh-omnipotent godike beings, but they have their own autonomy, goals, dreams, pains, etc. And pretty frequently defy their creators, often to tragic results.

FWIW, most of the characters who'd be most qualified to judge it seem to consider them real people, including Soul Verso, Real Renoir, and most of the other Dessendres of any flavor with the noteworthy exceptions of Painted Clea and Painted Verso, who probably not so coincidentally are also the two that want to kill themselves.

I am not too sure about that. I was all too weary about the fact that not a single thing in the canvas (during the story or prior) has ever happened without a painter. So if a living painter interacting is mandatory for the lives to go on, now matter how many decisions they make, is it really autonamous? Instead of chatGPT, think about The Sims. You create them and if you leave the game untouched, they will make their decisions. That does not make them autonamous self-aware creatures. The canvas can be seen as a more complex set of rules governing their choices that can all be traced to the mindset of the creator of all of these people — Aline (note that Lumiere and the people have nothing to do with Verso, they are uniquely Alines) which mimics her attachment and fight to remain attached.

Another hint to me is Maeles ending. We see 2 obvious examples where the painter literaly overrides their free will. Both Verso and Gustave are not who they were, but what Maele wanted them to be. Its not their free will, it's her will.

The game stops short of making clear how time works when there's no painting around, but some of Esquie and Francoise's dialogue strongly suggests time keeps moving when there's no painter present (Clea hasn't visited for "centuries" which is wayyyyy longer than Aline has been in the painting).

You are welcome to your interpretation of Maelle's ending, but I didn't get the impression anyone was having their free will overridden. Verso clearly still has his own POV, otherwise he wouldn't be so dang pouty. No clue what you're talking about with Gustave.

[HellDuke]

Originally posted by Talbot:

The game stops short of making clear how time works when there's no painting around, but some of Esquie and Francoise's dialogue strongly suggests time keeps moving when there's no painter present (Clea hasn't visited for "centuries" which is wayyyyy longer than Aline has been in the painting).

Indeed that it does. However the fact that Clea has not visited for centuries does not really work as an argument against the idea that a painter is necessary. The idea is that any painter will do. The canvas was originally created by Verso, but Aline, Renoir and Clea all came into the canvas at some point in time and left their marks. Clea would enter to play with Verso, but there is no reason to think Verso did not enter himself.

Also, it's not a stretch to say that Aline has been in the canvas for centuries from their perspective as well. Note that 67 years is only the fight between Renoir and Aline. Based on prior dialogue it's evident that Renoir didn't immediately jump in after her, only when he grew concerned that she spent too long in the canvas and we know Clea last entered at least when Nevrons showed up, since like all the humans are made by Aline, Axons by Renoir and finally nevrons (or some of them at least) by Clea.

So this definetely is still very much up for debate, however based on how all painters behave, I would lean towards the idea that a painter must use their power in order for things to progress and change, since they are effectively creating their world. No painter - no creation.

Originally posted by Talbot:

You are welcome to your interpretation of Maelle's ending, but I didn't get the impression anyone was having their free will overridden. Verso clearly still has his own POV, otherwise he wouldn't be so dang pouty. No clue what you're talking about with Gustave.

It is to some extent interpretation, but it's quite grounded. The first obvious one is Verso, who was made old and play the piano on stage. Those were not things he wished, those were things Maele came up with that it would be fun if he were to do. But there is another one that I noticed not many catch — Gustave. Going by how events went in the prologue, there is no reason why he would be with Sophie. Once again, the idea that he should be with Sophie was something Maele clearly expressed SHE wanted for Gustave, because in her mind it would make him happy. In other words there are two prominent choices that were created based on her own desires, not the free will of those characters. Gustave broke up with Sophie and even as the gommage was coming close did not show any intent of rekindling or reaffirming their love even as a goodbye.

[Roderick720]

The painters are godlike beings as far as the canvas world is concerned and even their creations change and behave in ways well beyond the scope of their original design. It's not unlike our real world if you believe in a higher power. As beautiful as the game's world and writing is, I would be surprised if Sandfall intended for players have a nihilistic view of the canvas world: none of it is "real" and therefore doesn't matter. Just my 2 cents, though.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by HellDuke:

It is to some extent interpretation, but it's quite grounded. The first obvious one is Verso, who was made old and play the piano on stage. Those were not things he wished, those were things Maele came up with that it would be fun if he were to do. But there is another one that I noticed not many catch — Gustave. Going by how events went in the prologue, there is no reason why he would be with Sophie. Once again, the idea that he should be with Sophie was something Maele clearly expressed SHE wanted for Gustave, because in her mind it would make him happy. In other words there are two prominent choices that were created based on her own desires, not the free will of those characters. Gustave broke up with Sophie and even as the gommage was coming close did not show any intent of rekindling or reaffirming their love even as a goodbye.

Oh I disagree strongly with both of these actually.

Playing the piano *is* something Verso explicitly wants, and being old is what Maelle *thinks* he wants; she's trying to give him what he wants, she's just too blinded by grief to see that none of those secondary desires matter in light of existential angst. But he clearly still has free will; otherwise he'd be a whole lot more cheerful and less hesitant to play.

Gustave broke up with Sophie specifically because shed didn't want to have kids in a world of gommages and is clearly still very much in love with her in the prologue; by the time Maelle's ending happens, the only reason they weren't together is no longer in play. It'd be weirder if they *weren't* back together.

[Umie]

Originally posted by Roderick720:

The painters are godlike beings as far as the canvas world is concerned and even their creations change and behave in ways well beyond the scope of their original design. It's not unlike our real world if you believe in a higher power. As beautiful as the game's world and writing is, I would be surprised if Sandfall intended for players have a nihilistic view of the canvas world: none of it is "real" and therefore doesn't matter. Just my 2 cents, though.

Then they shouldn't have made the painters look and act like basic humans. It's another human being a god over...other humans? It also doesn't help that after Act 2, Lumiere and associated characters are narratively abandoned (because only the family matters, specifically Alicia).

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Umie:

Originally posted by Roderick720:

The painters are godlike beings as far as the canvas world is concerned and even their creations change and behave in ways well beyond the scope of their original design. It's not unlike our real world if you believe in a higher power. As beautiful as the game's world and writing is, I would be surprised if Sandfall intended for players have a nihilistic view of the canvas world: none of it is "real" and therefore doesn't matter. Just my 2 cents, though.

Then they shouldn't have made the painters look and act like basic humans. It's another human being a god over...other humans? It also doesn't help that after Act 2, Lumiere and associated characters are narratively abandoned (because only the family matters).

I think Lune, Monoco, and Sciel only feel "abandoned" because of how much optional side nonsense there is in Act 3 that is either lore-based or wholly story irrelevant, where they don't really contribute a ton; they don't contribute to the optional side nonsense in Act 1 or Act 2 either, there's just a lot less of it generally so the proportion is different. But their most important companion quests/sequences are in Act 3, and in the only story mission in that act they each get a moment in the spotlight to call Renoir on his hypocrisy (except for Monoco, whose silence in that moment is a character beat in its own right).

They don't get as much shine as Verso and Maelle, but that was true in Act 2, too, because those two are the main characters and everyone else is secondary, up to and including the other Dessendres.

[HellDuke]

Originally posted by Talbot:

Originally posted by HellDuke:

It is to some extent interpretation, but it's quite grounded. The first obvious one is Verso, who was made old and play the piano on stage. Those were not things he wished, those were things Maele came up with that it would be fun if he were to do. But there is another one that I noticed not many catch — Gustave. Going by how events went in the prologue, there is no reason why he would be with Sophie. Once again, the idea that he should be with Sophie was something Maele clearly expressed SHE wanted for Gustave, because in her mind it would make him happy. In other words there are two prominent choices that were created based on her own desires, not the free will of those characters. Gustave broke up with Sophie and even as the gommage was coming close did not show any intent of rekindling or reaffirming their love even as a goodbye.

Oh I disagree strongly with both of these actually.

Playing the piano *is* something Verso explicitly wants, and being old is what Maelle *thinks* he wants; she's trying to give him what he wants, she's just too blinded by grief to see that none of those secondary desires matter in light of existential angst. But he clearly still has free will; otherwise he'd be a whole lot more cheerful and less hesitant to play.

Gustave broke up with Sophie specifically because shed didn't want to have kids in a world of gommages and is clearly still very much in love with her in the prologue; by the time Maelle's ending happens, the only reason they weren't together is no longer in play. It'd be weirder if they *weren't* back together.

Fair, like I said, it's up to interpretation. The way Gustave acted in the prologue made it clear that he had no intention of getting back together with Sophie. and while Verso wanted to play the piano, it was Maele explicitly who had the idea of him playing the piano in the concert hall with everyone in Lumiere watching him. So that action in of itself is really only up to Maele regardless of whether Verso wants it or not.

[This PC]

Originally posted by Umie:

so the canvas is basically a quantum computer interfaced with the painter? the painted entities are basically just AI NPCs? this is just their "steampunk" version of VR right? the people inside the painting are just constructs right?

I perceive them like people on a different plane of existence, not AI's or constructs.
The relationship these people have with the Dessendre family is more a "caged animal" scenario, and Renoir is being kinda cruel to them, and his solution to this conundrum is to put them all down for his selfish desires to have his family back, even against the wishes of his family. Like, not only he's hurting Maelle and his wife by being 1940's dad and wanting to control his family, he's also hurting all the people you've met in that world. He has good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with that. Imagine Maelle returning to her world where she can't speak, her face is burnt, she's missing one eye, her father wants to return her to that. x_x

Let her die in the painting with her friends if it's her desire, better a life that flares hard than a farce of a life for 100 years. :P

[˥ÆW]

It's probably much more simple then you think, people talk about 'getting lost' in a book, a song or other types of art. This is just a more extreme version of that, when a painter/paintress paints something they put their soul into it (In this case quite literally) and people can simply fall into the art by looking at it and get immersed completely to the point they become one with the painting, the writers and such probably work in identical ways. Once inside the painter can modify the painting their image regardless of the original painters wants or wishes it's simply creative writing you like something keep it you dislike something? Remove it.

I can answer the question about why people go with Maelle's ending though. Some people want to get immersed in a world and the game lets us experience what Maelle felt you feel immersed in the world and when the time comes the player simply does not want to leave and thinks there is a happy ending behind staying in the painting or the simulation as you put it.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by HellDuke:

The way Gustave acted in the prologue made it clear that he had no intention of getting back together with Sophie.

I read the prologue the exact opposite of how you did. The framing of "getting back together" is a little awkward there since she's about to die five minutes after they reunite, but to me it seemed very clear he considered her the love of his life and regretted the way they'd separated.

[Alice]

I don't really support the tech metaphor because it's sorta reductionist at least from the modern tech's standpoint. The game doesn't expand on the cognitive limits of the created people. For narrative weight purposes I think it's best to interpret the canvas as a created world with god creators present in it, but with human minds and suffering from personal issues. So basically a greek tragedy.
The game does differ from all the other dog dream stories in that it still makes "real world" have explicitely supernatural aspects to it (the painters' gift of creation), and I think it's there for this, to avoid reducing the complexity of the painted world of Verso-Aline-Clea-Alicia/Maelle.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Alice:

I don't really support the tech metaphor because it's sorta reductionist at least from the modern tech's standpoint. The game doesn't expand on the cognitive limits of the created people. For narrative weight purposes I think it's best to interpret the canvas as a created world with god creators present in it, but with human minds and suffering from personal issues. So basically a greek tragedy.
The game does differ from all the other dog dream stories in that it still makes "real world" have explicitely supernatural aspects to it (the painters' gift of creation), and I think it's there for this, to avoid reducing the complexity of the painted world of Verso-Aline-Clea-Alicia/Maelle.

Yeah, I feel this way as well. Seeing the people of the Canvas as "Sims" or "AI" feels like a copout to me, because it removes so much of the stakes and conflict otherwise inherenet in the choice.

[Umie]

Originally posted by Talbot:

Originally posted by Alice:

I don't really support the tech metaphor because it's sorta reductionist at least from the modern tech's standpoint. The game doesn't expand on the cognitive limits of the created people. For narrative weight purposes I think it's best to interpret the canvas as a created world with god creators present in it, but with human minds and suffering from personal issues. So basically a greek tragedy.
The game does differ from all the other dog dream stories in that it still makes "real world" have explicitely supernatural aspects to it (the painters' gift of creation), and I think it's there for this, to avoid reducing the complexity of the painted world of Verso-Aline-Clea-Alicia/Maelle.

Yeah, I feel this way as well. Seeing the people of the Canvas as "Sims" or "AI" feels like a copout to me, because it removes so much of the stakes and conflict otherwise inherenet in the choice.

Yeah but that's just you going along with a personal fantasy. As in: choosing to suspend disbelief. Maybe I'm just not used to this in video games, but even growing up I was never into Alice in Wonderland or Wizard of Oz..."aw it was all a dream...". If I choose to go along with this, then it has to be a technological explanation, a la The Matrix or Pantheon.