I really appreciate how the choice of endings pits the core themes of the game against each other

[Talbot]

Spoilers, obviously.

I think something that gets lost in the kind of factionalized good ending/bad ending discourse is that *both* endings are thematic culminations of one of the game's main themes at the expense of the other.

Verso's ending engages "healthily" with the grief theme, and ideas of acceptance and moving on. But it does so at the cost of the needs of the many over needs of the few theme that's so prevalent in ideas like "for those who come after" and the running criticism of Verso that "You can't just decide for everyone!"

Maelle's ending prioritizes those themes about moving forward and prioritizing the good of the collective, at the cost of her entirely (or, if you want to be optimistic about her allowing Verso to age, at least very mostly) refusing to process her own grief and allow either Painted or Soul Verso to go.

Which is "right" depends on which theme matters more to you (well, that and whatever rationalizations you'd like to make to make the choice easier on yourself, i.e. "the painted beings are just AI and don't count"), but either is a fitting end to the story, and I really appreciate, despite how frustrating it is, that the writers are smart enough to recognize that none of these things exist in a vacuum.

I personally come down on the side that there is no "good" ending, but that Maelle's is considerably less bad (and, perhaps equally importantly, less final, with nothing in it being truly irreversible) but I understand why other people see it differently, and to me that's a sign of good writing.

[DmonHiro]

How can Maelle's ending be less bad when it destroys her family?

[Acanthaceae]

In my opinion, both endings are completely divorced from the world and the characters they had established in the rest of the game.

It genuinely feels like they brought in an intern to write a lesson instead of coherent endings to a story.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by DmonHiro:

How can Maelle's ending be less bad when it destroys her family?

I don't want this thread to turn into another protracted argument about which is "better," as we have plenty of those already and my point is largely that neither is really better and it's down to each player's own personal priorities and interpretations, but I think the simplest arguments for Maelle's ending being less bad *for me* is:

1) It saves thousands at the cost of, at most 2-3 people being worse off. Even if we allow that it's the worst possible outcome for all the Dessendres, they're still badly outnumbered by the Lumieriens, Gestrals, Grandis, etc. who benefit from it.

2) It leaves open the possibility for further developments; her allowing Verso to age and (in theory) eventually die already distinguishes her some from Aline, and Gustave's lumina converter tech implies a lot of potential possibilities for making the canvas (or a Painter's time in it) more sustainable.

Comparatively, Verso's ending wipes out thousands in pursuit of the emotional health of three people, one of whom is still horribly disfigured and in constant physical pain as a direct result of it even if she's better processing her grief, and all of whom are also still in clear mortal peril from The Writers and could just as easily all be dead tomorrow, in which case it's all pretty much for naught.

If you don't think the people in the Canvas "count," then the moral algebra swings back in Verso's favor, but I'm of the opinion they do, and I think the game leans pretty hard in that direction as well.

[DmonHiro]

Ah, you're basing this on the argument that the people in the canvas are actually sentient. Fair. I don't agree with that, but I understand where you're coming from.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by DmonHiro:

Ah, you're basing this on the argument that the people in the canvas are actually sentient. Fair. I don't agree with that, but I understand where you're coming from.

I think the choice is much more interesting/difficult if they are.

Obviously if they aren't, it's pretty nearly a no-brainer (though you could probably make a corner-case that it's arguably still better for Alicia, just not for everyone else), but if it's a no-brainer that kinda sucks all the tragedy and intrigue out of it, IMO. It's supposed to be a hard choice!

[Alatus]

I really love that kind of structural thought process on that topic. I wonder if these endings were the result of a rush (because they ARE conflicting with a narative) or this is a very clever "swan song" way to twist minds of a players one last time.
My personal reasoning next, feel free to skip.
---
I can't stop thinking of false dichotomy Lune mentioned earlier. I see the endings as a continuation of that logical caveat.

When I decided who to choose i tried to imagine the best possible scenario for my personal morale compass and try to think what path MAY lead to it. I decided:
1. The world inside a canvas has to be saved, just because for me the habitants of it are sentient.
2. Grown people should be responsible for their choices and other should respect their decisions and not enforce their vision of what right or wrong.
3. Compromise was never an option but it should have been. This conflict could and should be resolved without extreme methods (see point 1). Alina has to put her ♥♥♥♥ together in a real life, talk with her husband, talk with her daughters who are broken in their own way. Alicia should be put in check by her family to make sure not to harm herself, but if she wants to stay in canvas from time to time - it should be her choice (see point 2).

As an extension of point 2 Verso (painted one) should be freed from his immortality if he chooses.
Both of them met at the highest points of their anxiety and shouldn't be making any hasty decision from that pit of depression they found themselfs in.

[DmonHiro]

Tell me about it. I was staring at the screen for 5 minutes trying to make a choice. I understand both sides, but I lean much more towards Verso. Even if the people in the canvas are truly sentient, they are kept alive by the endless suffering of one individual. I wouldn't want to be kept alive like that. Is it selfish? Definitely.

[Alatus]

Ultimatelly I genuinely in love how this game made people think for themselves and talk with each others on pretty heavy topics.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Alatus:

3. Compromise was never an option but it should have been. This conflict could and should be resolved without extreme methods (see point 1). Alina has to put her ♥♥♥♥ together in a real life, talk with her husband, talk with her daughters who are broken in their own way. Alicia should be put in check by her family to make sure not to harm herself, but if she wants to stay in canvas from time to time - it should be her choice (see point 2).

As an extension of point 2 Verso (painted one) should be freed from his immortality if he chooses.
Both of them met at the highest points of their anxiety and shouldn't be making any hasty decision from that pit of depression they found themselfs in.

Both excellent points.

I think Maelle's most armor-piercing line int he final confrontation is "Can't we just go home and talk about this?"

There's no reason it needs to be a snap decision, but Verso's decision-making cosnistently leaves a little to be desired.

Painted Alicia even straight up advocates for compromise, but Verso's just not willing to pursue it once he sees Aline in pain and realizes Maelle intends to stay.

[The HR Department]

That's a strange aspect about how people will see the painted Verso in the the canvas as being alive, and empathise with him, because he's dead IRL, but possibly not the other people of Lumiere, who may also get to live forever, without the gommage. Or do they now just die of old age, which would make me think that their lives would be quite real, as they seem to be sentient.

Aline and Renoir should be able to get themselves together outside of the painting, without having to destroy it, and Alicia can make her own choices, but i'd hope that she'd use the painting as a place to escape to on occasion and not forfeit her actual life.

[DmonHiro]

Originally posted by The HR Department:

Aline and Renoir should be able to get themselves together outside of the painting, without having to destroy it,

Problem is Renoir already tried that. Aline would simply not stop going into the canvas. And Aline showing up in the last battle showed us that she couldn't stay out of it.

[Alatus]

Originally posted by DmonHiro:

Problem is Renoir already tried that. Aline would simply not stop going into the canvas. And Aline showing up in the last battle showed us that she couldn't stay out of it.

Some may say that she left the canvas herself after a battle has over. But I agree that this is not healthy and should be addressed. Maybe not with a cost of the whole Gestrals civilization though if possible

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by The HR Department:

Aline and Renoir should be able to get themselves together outside of the painting, without having to destroy it, and Alicia can make her own choices, but i'd hope that she'd use the painting as a place to escape to on occasion and not forfeit her actual life.

Yeah, I hear people tried to use Krokodil / Desomorphine only occasional to overcome existential grief, but ended up looking like the Curator in the end.

Guess things do not turn out rational always.

[Alatus]

Originally posted by Apocalypse:

Originally posted by The HR Department:

Aline and Renoir should be able to get themselves together outside of the painting, without having to destroy it, and Alicia can make her own choices, but i'd hope that she'd use the painting as a place to escape to on occasion and not forfeit her actual life.

Yeah, I hear people tried to use Krokodil / Desomorphine only occasional to overcome existential grief, but ended up looking like the Curator in the end.

Guess things do not turn out rational always.

That is a common point of view also. I can understand it, but please, ask yourself: on a scale from "looking at photo of your long gone relative longer that you should" to "be a drug addict" where do you put that situation? If it closer to second for you, then Verso it is

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Alatus:

That is a common point of view also. I can understand it, but please, ask yourself: on a scale from "looking at photo of your long gone relative longer that you should" to "be a drug addict" where do you put that situation? If it closer to second for you, then Verso it is

Of course, this math is complicated slightly if it comes with the added variable of "being a drug addict will save thousands of lives, being sober will kill them," which is what I was complimenting above.