[SPOILER] Are the characters...

[Fanta]

Are the characters in the painting truly self-aware, sentient beings (excluding those comingfrom the real world)? Or are they like characters in a simulation? I didn’t notice anything during the playthrough that clearly indicated one answer or the other; did you?

[Backseatgamern]

My take is that yes they are sentient and self aware but the Maelle ending implies heavily that they can be controlled to fit the painters narrative. Same as Renoir, Alicia and Clea got painted over becoming a whole different person in the canvas world.

[Azzurra]

I think that Maelle is the proof that they are, she has been reset and seems to have developed a conscience and a personality of her own that is different from Alicia's

also Gustave and Sciel who tried to commit suicide

but your 2 options aren't really incompatible either it's a bit vague, I mean they can be in a simulation while being self aware at the same time it all depends on what the "master of the matrix" has decided :p

[MrQun]

I think that this is open to interpretation. Renoir clearly doesn't seem to think that they are real as he is willing to destroy the canvas in order to free Aline and Alicia.

However, they make it clear that the canvas has a piece of Verso's soul which can be argued has given the characters within the canvas a soul as well. If this is the case, then it is fair to say that those characters are alive and self aware.

Like I said, it's open to interpretation.

[Talbot]

Originally posted by Backseatgamern:

My take is that yes they are sentient and self aware but the Maelle ending implies heavily that they can be controlled to fit the painters narrative. Same as Renoir, Alicia and Clea got painted over becoming a whole different person in the canvas world.

I think Painted Verso and Painted Alicia are proof that you can *try* to control or steer your creations but it won't necessarily work.

You have control of them right up until you're done painting, but they still have the ability to grow and evolve from there. Even Painted Renoir, while loyal to Aline, makes choices that she probably wouldn't want him to make, or at minimum does not act as efficiently as he could to protect her.

Clea's white nevrons also don't behave the way she wants, notably including Blanche whom if I understood correctly REAL Clea specifically painted for a very explicit purpose, which Blanche then defied, even if some of the others may have come from Painted Clea.

[zero]

they think and grow, so yeah, they are functionally real, just because creatures from a higher plane made them doesn't really change that

[Backseatgamern]

Originally posted by Talbot:

Originally posted by Backseatgamern:

My take is that yes they are sentient and self aware but the Maelle ending implies heavily that they can be controlled to fit the painters narrative. Same as Renoir, Alicia and Clea got painted over becoming a whole different person in the canvas world.

I think Painted Verso and Painted Alicia are proof that you can *try* to control or steer your creations but it won't necessarily work.

You have control of them right up until you're done painting, but they still have the ability to grow and evolve from there. Even Painted Renoir, while loyal to Aline, makes choices that she probably wouldn't want him to make, or at minimum does not act as efficiently as he could to protect her.

Clea's white nevrons also don't behave the way she wants, notably including Blanche whom if I understood correctly REAL Clea specifically painted for a very explicit purpose, which Blanche then defied, even if some of the others may have come from Painted Clea.

Great points! The detail I refer to is during Epilogue when old Verso hesitates to play, he freezes until Maelles paintress mask comes on. In my head canon he would probably had taken his life if given the choice but he is full on puppet for her.

My best guess for what all that symbolises is when you release your art it will gain it's own life no matter how clear my message was. And the active influencing on behaviours such as old Verso I take as the artist retconning. She repainted Verso inspired by his regrets, not verbatum but "I never wanted to paint but I love piano" "Not aging and watching everyone you care about fade is a nightmare". Showing in my head canon how she never understood/accepted his wish to be unpainted.

[Gizil]

Originally posted by MrQun:

I think that this is open to interpretation. Renoir clearly doesn't seem to think that they are real as he is willing to destroy the canvas in order to free Aline and Alicia.

Renoir's position is the position of God. Literally.
Yes, they are sentient beings, but he is the Painter—he creates, alters, and destroys worlds.

[Jee Em]

From their limited point of view, yes, the people inside the canvas think that they are living breathing beings which can exercise free will.

From the outside perspective though, they're not. They are artificial creations, living within the boundaries of an artificial world and are limited by the creative expertise of their creator.
Hence why the Gestrals are so simple minded.

The Sims are actually the perfect comparison.
Characters within the world of the Sims live an artificial life within it's boundaries, have desires and display emotion and act based on their needs and form relationships. You can grow attached to them and give them the freedom to roam around But we all know that Sims are not real and just uninstall the game or delete the whole savefile with all characters we knew.

The difference in Expedition 33 is, that the story is told from the perspective of the Sims and how the action of their creators influnce their world and not from the creators point of view which usually the player takes hold of.

[Backseatgamern]

Originally posted by Jee Em:

From their limited point of view, yes, the people inside the canvas think that they are living breathing beings which can exercise free will.

From the outside perspective though, they're not. They are artificial creations, living within the boundaries of an artificial world and are limited by the creative expertise of their creator.
Hence why the Gestrals are so simple minded.

The Sims are actually the perfect comparison.
Characters within the world of the Sims live an artificial life within it's boundaries, have desires and display emotion and act based on their needs and form relationships. You can grow attached to them and give them the freedom to roam around But we all know that Sims are not real and just uninstall the game or delete the whole savefile with all characters we knew.

The difference in Expedition 33 is, that the story is told from the perspective of the Sims and how the action of their creators influnce their world and not from the creators point of view which usually the player takes hold of.

This comparisson crossed my mind as well but I had Animal Crossing in mind, but Im happy to see similar gears spinning

[Gizil]

Originally posted by Jee Em:

From their limited point of view, yes, the people inside the canvas think that they are living breathing beings which can exercise free will.

From the outside perspective though, they're not. They are artificial creations, living within the boundaries of an artificial world and are limited by the creative expertise of their creator.
Hence why the Gestrals are so simple minded.

The Sims are actually the perfect comparison.
Characters within the world of the Sims live an artificial life within it's boundaries, have desires and display emotion and act based on their needs and form relationships. You can grow attached to them and give them the freedom to roam around But we all know that Sims are not real and just uninstall the game or delete the whole savefile with all characters we knew.

The difference in Expedition 33 is, that the story is told from the perspective of the Sims and how the action of their creators influnce their world and not from the creators point of view which usually the player takes hold of.

The Sims is a terrible analogy that implies that "in reality" the people living in the Canvas are not sentient beings.
Gestrals, Esquie, those poet giants, are so "simple" because they were created by the young Verso. He created a children's fairy tale. But Alina, created Lumiere, with real people. They are born, die, love, hate, experience fear, already independently of the will of Alin.
If our Universe is a simulation, we are no different from them.

[Shark]

I like to think that they are real people, regardless if they can be controlled by whoever is in control of the canvas. I think something in the game eludes to that, but I forget exactly where and what.

I'm not religious, but I'd imagine that the people who believe that an omnipotent god created our world and actively intervenes still think of themselves are real people. I apply this view towards the canvas people.

If you don't think of the canvas people as real, then it makes choosing Verso in the end the obvious choice, which I think cheapens the total experience a bit. Seeing the canvas people as real turns the 2-choice ending into a very interesting trolley problem with so much grey area that no choice is either good or bad, and I think the story is better for it. It pushes you into reflecting upon your own moral values in a very deep way.

[parent child bowl]

Originally posted by MrQun:

I think that this is open to interpretation. Renoir clearly doesn't seem to think that they are real as he is willing to destroy the canvas in order to free Aline and Alicia.

However, they make it clear that the canvas has a piece of Verso's soul which can be argued has given the characters within the canvas a soul as well. If this is the case, then it is fair to say that those characters are alive and self aware.

Like I said, it's open to interpretation.

Renoir acknowledges that painters create living worlds in act 3. He just prioritises his family over their creations.

[Noelemahc]

Cosmic Horror, best flavour: humans ARE Cthulhu.

I think they're self aware enough (aware enough to comprehend they ARE in a simulation, as the Act III first camp scene shows), but the rules of the world limit their ability to affect it, while the Painters are free to edit them as they see fit, but the moment they stop, the painted person acts freely (within the set boundaries).

The movie 13th Floor should probably come up more often as a recommendation in these forums. Go watch it.

[parent child bowl]

Originally posted by Shark:

I like to think that they are real people, regardless if they can be controlled by whoever is in control of the canvas. I think something in the game eludes to that, but I forget exactly where and what.

I'm not religious, but I'd imagine that the people who believe that an omnipotent god created our world and actively intervenes still think of themselves are real people. I apply this view towards the canvas people.

If you don't think of the canvas people as real, then it makes choosing Verso in the end the obvious choice, which I think cheapens the total experience a bit. Seeing the canvas people as real turns the 2-choice ending into a very interesting trolley problem with so much grey area that no choice is either good or bad, and I think the story is better for it. It pushes you into reflecting upon your own moral values in a very deep way.

Starting act 3 I considered Alicia (Maelle pretty much died at the end of act 2) an antagonist. I also considered the people in the canvas to be real people.

I picked Verso's ending because it was an ending without suffering compared to the endless cycle of suffering that would be caused by Aline and Alicia coming into the canvas over and over again while Renoir tries to get them out.

Verso's ending was still the obvious choice for me.

[Gizil]

Originally posted by parent child bowl:

Renoir acknowledges that painters create living worlds in act 3. He just prioritises his family over their creations.

"Your friends speak truth, and it changes nothing."