correct me if i'm wrong (spoilers)

[Hormesis]

so i'm trying to parse together the story of the game and i'm operating under a few assumptions. please someone correct me if i'm wrong

1) the fracture occurred when verso died

2) gestrels, grandis, esquie, francois (clea's turtle), monoco and noco (family dogs), as well at the people of lumiere prior to the fracture were created by verso when he was a child. the subsequent generation of these people were still being created even though verso was now dead.

3) most of the nevrons were creations of clea with the exception of the clair obscur inspired nevrons which were created by renoir. these were only created following verso's death

4) renoir also created the 4 axons, one of which was destroyed by simon, another clea creation (painted over saline's version).

5) Aline created the members of expedition 0 which included painted versions of verso, alicia and renoir. did it ever mention why she didn't paint clea? it seems pretty obvious they don't get along but i'm not sure if it was mentioned a motivation beyond this. or was she created and then destroyed by the real clea? also were there other members besides

6) the versions of the family members that don't have faces are remnants (piece's of their souls?) of the actual family members (the little boy painting, clea in the tower, the curator, maelle and the paintress)

7) verso died when he was 26 in a fire that was started by the writers, a presumed enemy of the painters. the fire was at least partially due to alicia being tricked.

8) aline sought verso's canvas out of grief and alicia out of guilt. renoir's goal is to get his family back together. clea's only motivation is to pull renoir out of the painting to help aid her in their conflict w/ the writers. she doesn't seem to want aline's help, even though she states she's stronger than renoir.

9) following act 2 finale it shares a glimpse of monolith year 49 and it shows maelle dreaming of verso dying. the following scene shows maelle and clea discussing their parents near verso's canvas. it implies that aline has been in the canvas for 51 monolith years (presumably these are much shorter than our years or time just travels more quickly). maelle was born in the 49th year and is therefore 16 during their expedition in the 33rd monolith year.

10) the number painted on the monolith was a representation of the age of people aline could save from renoir's gommage. the longer she stayed in the painting the weaker she became

11) expedition 0 included verso, renoir, clea, alicia as well as simon, julie, claude, louie and dion +others who were alive prior to the fracture

[Shin Happens]

The fracture occured when Renoir entered the canvas after an unknown amount of time to get his wife Aline out of the canvas. They fought. This caused the fracture, NOT Verso dying. Young Boy Verso painted the canvas as a child, as far as we know it was his only canvas, he never created another one apparently, he wanted to be a musician instead. When a painter paints a canvas they apparently infuse it with a tiny splinter of their soul which gives the canvas life. So even though Verso died in the real world a splinter of the soul remained in the Canvas, Aline wanted to be with this remnant of her son. And she was in the canvas for some time before Renoir followed her to get her out.

The faded boy you can meet several times (or the faceless boy) is a representation of the splinter of the soul Verso left in the canvas.

The other faded people you can meet are echoes / remnants of the other (real) family members, yes, you can meet Renoir (a man with hat who laments the death of his son) and Clea (on the battlefield and the tower). But this is very important now: Clea in the Flying Manor is the painted over Painted Clea originally created by Aline, the mother.
The Curator however is the avatar / representation of the real Renoir who is trapped beneath the monolith ever since the fracture and not an echo or so. It's all he can be in this world as long as he is trapped and his power is limited. Aline is also the more powerfull paintress overall, yes, and is stronger than Renoir, which is why Clea needs to help her father with the Nevrons.

Lumière almost certainly existed some time before the fracture. Chances are Aline created Lumière and its first people shortly after she entered the canvas as place for her painted family to live. There was peace for a time before Renoir came after her (we do not know how much time passed before he came after her!) and they fought. Verso created every other peaceful being: Gestrals (inlcuding Monoco who is a stand in for the family dog), Grandis and Esquie.

Painted Clea IS in the canvas, you may have missed an optional area called "Flying Manor" perhaps which is in the sky, you can only get there in Act 3. There you learn that Aline very much created Painted Clea, but then the real Clea entered the canvas to help her father get Aline out and she painted some Nevrons, then she painted over her mother's version of her, and Clea is the only one who can repaint someone else's work, so this now repainted Painted Clea would keep making Nevrons, because Clea had things to do in the real world and could not stay, but Nevrons are needed to trap chrome so Aline is weakened, Getting overpainted and being forced to create Nevrons for all eternity basically in turn made Painted Clea go crazy over time. When you defeat her in the Flying Manor you end all this. And the splinter of Young Boy Verso is very grateful. He also tells you that to him everything in the canvas is real and has a soul (important for the endings).

Alicia/Maelle may feel some guilt for sure, but it is probably not the primary motivation for her wanting to help. However, Aline, her mother, greatly resents her now, blaming her for everything. Out of spite she painted Canvas Alicia in her burned/disfigured and mute form, even if she didn't have to. Clea is very cold and detached as well and does not seem to care for her sister all that much. All of which is important for the endings too when it comes to Maelle's motivations and choices.

[Hormesis]

you're right ofc about the fracture. i'm surprised the fact i made it number 1 didn't invite more discussion. i guess my post was too big for some to read.

thanks for pointing out the manor. i did that content but i failed to remember it. to me clea is the most interesting and unknown character. i'm guessing she is demonstrating characteristics which were present in her mother prior to verso's death. she may even feel an obligation to fill her mom's spot now that she's no longer mentally capable of fulfilling her original obligations. however we know she must also have a soft side since it's my understanding she spent the most time helping in the creation of verso's canvas when she was a child. we also know that the nevrons didn't appear until the fracture, which implies her other creations much have been much more humane. i speculate in fact she was responsible for the people of lumiere. i can't be confident since i'm not sure how painters create their canvases, however their complex personalities and social interactions seem like they were likely created by an adult, ie clea.

i agree that guilt wouldn't be the solitary motivation for alicia's attachment to the canvas, however her desire to hold onto it does seem primarily motivated by a method for atonement.

[Shin Happens]

It is implied or at least a best guess that Aline created Lumière. We do know for a fact that Clea used to play with Verso in the canvas (the faded boy outright tells you about it). But it's never stated if she created something back then as well.

The Nevrons were only created after the fracture, when Clea realised she has to do something to help her father.

Clea is sadly almost completely sidelined, even if she is interesting. She appears to be the most talented family member, probably more talented than her mother maybe, because only she can paint over someone else's work. Or so it is said.

But generally speaking she comes across as pretty cold and detached and very determined, focused solely on the conflict with the writers (so it's about power). She does not treat her sister with any kindness. Of course the fire may be to blame for that, maybe she was different before.

Maelle ultimately does not want to destroy the canvas because it has been her life for the past 16 years (subjective years, not 16 years in the real world). She has come to know all the people of Lumière as true human beings. Also, and this is important, we learn that in the real world Alicia is in constant pain, each breath she takes hurts, she has no voice, is seriously disfigured.

Why would she want to return? Nothing is waiting for her in the real world. Her mother blames her for the death of her son. Clea is cold and detached. Only her father has a soft spot for her. That still leaves the constant pain and the prospect of a very, very lonely life that knows no love (romantic love), she'll never have a family or kids, she can't talk, she is seriously disfigured, she will not know happiness in the real world. I would guess most people would choose Lumière in a setting like this.

[Hormesis]

interesting takes. the main pushback i'd have is that aline made the people of lumiere. it is possible, don't get me wrong, however these people seem pretty logical in their inferences. if time is consistent across the canvas then it would seem like a pretty significant point of consternation when their history before the fracture was so short. i can't be certain at the amount of time between verso's death and fracture, but unless it accounted for hundreds, if not thousands, of years then it would certainly be a point of dissent that would make them question their existence. to me at least it would make more sense that they were created when verso was a boy and had continued to exist until shortly after his death at 26. maybe i'm just trying to put pieces together that redeem clea, but i like to imagine she was a different person prior verso's death who would do something like create the people of lumiere.

as for alicia. i'm sure her pain is a motivation for wanting to stay in the canvas, she says as much at multiple times. and consciously i believe this to be her primary motivation. however our subconscious ultimately rules us and i believe subconsciously she's operating through guilt. i'm filling in a lot of blanks here but there have been clues. i believe that alicia was jealous of verso and everyone in her family. she wasn't a talented artist (as evident by only the tiny portrait she has on the "family wall." she wasn't able to create sciel or luna w/out first being guided by verso. she does'nt appear to have a canvas of her own. i believe this jealously ultimately lead to her being tricked by the writers. i also believe she is more drawn to writing than artistry, as evidence by her taking over gustave's journal, and never once showing any inclination towards art work. she likely feels guilty that her jealously lead to verso dying. or at least 99.99% dying. she believes that by holding onto that .01% left of verso that she isn't responsible for his death yet. as soon as that piece is gone she is all the things her mom and sister alude to. this is the real pain she's afraid of facing.

then again that's all speculation on my part

[EnzoVic]

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

It is implied or at least a best guess that Aline created Lumière.

According to Verso, Lumiere already existed before the Fracture, so Aline couldn't have created it. Verso was in Lumiere when the Fracture happened and launched Expedition 00 after.

[Platapoop]

Originally posted by EnzoVic:

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

It is implied or at least a best guess that Aline created Lumière.

According to Verso, Lumiere already existed before the Fracture, so Aline couldn't have created it. Verso was in Lumiere when the Fracture happened and launched Expedition 00 after.

Well firstly, Verso is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ liar. Secondly, Aline entering the painting did not cause the fracture. Fracture happened because Renoir went into the painting later and created the axioms to blow up Lumiere to get Aline out of the painting.

[malvonius]

Originally posted by EnzoVic:

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

It is implied or at least a best guess that Aline created Lumière.

According to Verso, Lumiere already existed before the Fracture, so Aline couldn't have created it. Verso was in Lumiere when the Fracture happened and launched Expedition 00 after.

The fracture occurred when Renroir entered the canvas to get his wife out, which was after Verso's death, it is very much likely that Aline painted Lumiere after he died, and before the fracture, it makes the most sense.

[EnzoVic]

Originally posted by malvonius:

Originally posted by EnzoVic:

According to Verso, Lumiere already existed before the Fracture, so Aline couldn't have created it. Verso was in Lumiere when the Fracture happened and launched Expedition 00 after.

The fracture occurred when Renroir entered the canvas to get his wife out, which was after Verso's death, it is very much likely that Aline painted Lumiere after he died, and before the fracture, it makes the most sense.

Verso in the canvas, not Verso who died, was already in Lumiere before the Fracture. That's what I meant. Aline painting Lumiere then slowly killing the people there makes no sense.

[Balance Breaker]

Originally posted by malvonius:

Aline painting Lumiere then slowly killing the people there makes no sense.

Have you finished Act 2? It clearly says. That Aline protects people and the number on the monolith is her message, who else can she protect. Renoir kills everyone.

[Exophase]

Clea's comments make it pretty indisputable that Aline created the humans in the canvas:

"I have my pets in my place. 'She who controls chroma, controls the Canvas.' I can't take her chroma but I can keep it from returning to her."

"Yes, it's enough. It's just a matter of time. As she weakens, Renoir is able to erase her oldest creations."

"With the exception of her obscene fake family. She's made them immortal, but luckily, they're also quite useless."

[Theo]

Clea tells Alicia that Renoir is slowly killing Aline's older creations. Which should mean the people of Lumiere every year.

[C1REX]

Originally posted by Hormesis:

6) the versions of the family members that don't have faces are remnants (piece's of their souls?) of the actual family members (the little boy painting, clea in the tower, the curator, maelle and the paintress)

My interpretation of characters without faces is that they are are fading away over time. This may happen to just souls, like young Verso, or to living people, like Aline. Well, they still put their soul into the painting.
I think that grey matter on the real face of painters is somehow connected. Like the process of fading away and disappearing/dying has started.

If Aline is fading away, then real Renoir, trapped by her is also potentially dying.
They even have that smoke/dust around them like they are slowly goumage'ing.

[Hormesis]

Originally posted by Exophase:

Clea's comments make it pretty indisputable that Aline created the humans in the canvas:

"I have my pets in my place. 'She who controls chroma, controls the Canvas.' I can't take her chroma but I can keep it from returning to her."

"Yes, it's enough. It's just a matter of time. As she weakens, Renoir is able to erase her oldest creations."

"With the exception of her obscene fake family. She's made them immortal, but luckily, they're also quite useless."

again i don't discount the possibility altogether. and those quotes are good ones to support your premise. in retrospect she could have created them when verso was still a boy. that would make more sense on the timescale. it's already been shown people other than the creator of the canvas can create things w/in the canvas. it still seems odd to me however that clea, who has spent the most time helping verso in the creation of his canvas, didn't make anything herself. maybe she just helped verso create things? or maybe she just spent time w/ his creations, such as with francois. or maybe she only created francois? they do seem to have a similar temperament afteral.

Originally posted by Theo:

Clea tells Alicia that Renoir is slowly killing Aline's older creations. Which should mean the people of Lumiere every year.

another good point

Originally posted by C1REX:

Originally posted by Hormesis:

6) the versions of the family members that don't have faces are remnants (piece's of their souls?) of the actual family members (the little boy painting, clea in the tower, the curator, maelle and the paintress)

My interpretation of characters without faces is that they are are fading away over time. This may happen to just souls, like young Verso, or to living people, like Aline. Well, they still put their soul into the painting.
I think that grey matter on the real face of painters is somehow connected. Like the process of fading away and disappearing/dying has started.

If Aline is fading away, then real Renoir, trapped by her is also potentially dying.
They even have that smoke/dust around them like they are slowly goumage'ing.

that's an interesting connection, the grey colors on the face of someone painting, and the missing faces of those who represent the original creators. i hadn't considered that before

[Jester]

Originally posted by Hormesis:

Originally posted by Exophase:

Clea's comments make it pretty indisputable that Aline created the humans in the canvas:

"I have my pets in my place. 'She who controls chroma, controls the Canvas.' I can't take her chroma but I can keep it from returning to her."

"Yes, it's enough. It's just a matter of time. As she weakens, Renoir is able to erase her oldest creations."

"With the exception of her obscene fake family. She's made them immortal, but luckily, they're also quite useless."

again i don't discount the possibility altogether. and those quotes are good ones to support your premise. in retrospect she could have created them when verso was still a boy. that would make more sense on the timescale. it's already been shown people other than the creator of the canvas can create things w/in the canvas. it still seems odd to me however that clea, who has spent the most time helping verso in the creation of his canvas, didn't make anything herself. maybe she just helped verso create things? or maybe she just spent time w/ his creations, such as with francois. or maybe she only created francois? they do seem to have a similar temperament afteral.

Originally posted by Theo:

Clea tells Alicia that Renoir is slowly killing Aline's older creations. Which should mean the people of Lumiere every year.

another good point

Originally posted by C1REX:

My interpretation of characters without faces is that they are are fading away over time. This may happen to just souls, like young Verso, or to living people, like Aline. Well, they still put their soul into the painting.
I think that grey matter on the real face of painters is somehow connected. Like the process of fading away and disappearing/dying has started.

If Aline is fading away, then real Renoir, trapped by her is also potentially dying.
They even have that smoke/dust around them like they are slowly goumage'ing.

that's an interesting connection, the grey colors on the face of someone painting, and the missing faces of those who represent the original creators. i hadn't considered that before

She made the Nevrons and Francois.
She didn't mingle with the inhabitants but only Gestalts and such then played with Verso. She treated the Painted world like a VR simulation that you play as a Kid and moved on from it.