What does the Defence stat actually do?

[Sargon Aelther]

What does the Defence stat actually do?

The Defence attribute raises the defence stat. Ok, but what does it actually do? Does it reduce the incoming damage by a percentage? Is it a very basic subtraction (damage received equals damage taken minus defence)? Is it some other weird formula? The description simply says "Reduced incoming damage", but that is very Obscur and not Clair at all.

Why can't RPGs just show their math formulas, instead of being all vague about it? It's hard to figure it out by searching online, because everyone is too busy comparing their glass cannons.

[goodbye_bonito]

Time to test it yourself then?

[Meewec]

why do you need to know the math? as for it being obscured, try working showing the math into an rpg in a way that doesn't break reality.

[Weltall8000]

I don't know the formula, but I do see that stacking it makes a huge difference in staying power.

I just hit Act 3. Maelle is and has been a beast all game, but Lune, whom I stack defense and protective abilities on, is nigh an immovable object. It takes some serious punishment to take her down. Nothing close to an appropriate challenge can drop her. Maelle is a glass cannon and dies like every other turn for me, but tank Lune just keeps reviving her as she wades through the onslaught.

[Lucathegreat]

50 def = you get oneshotted
450 def = no

[Ratsplat]

I get the sense that it is simply taken away from attack power. Attack Powers tend to always be greater than defenses. So if you have 3000 attack power and an enemy has 500 defense, then your skills use 2500 attack power in its formulas.

It isn't like Dragon's Dogma where it reduces by an exact amount. Most games use simple formulas like this.

[Moriendor]

Originally posted by Sargon Aelther:

Is it a very basic subtraction (damage received equals damage taken minus defence)?

I believe that is exactly what it does. My party is only level 27 or so but I have put two points in vitality and one in defense almost every level-up for each character so their defense stat is ~20 and the defensive value (damage reduction) is something in the ~50s.
As far as I can tell that 50-something number gets subtracted from the incoming damage.

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

I get the sense that it is simply taken away from attack power. Attack Powers tend to always be greater than defenses. So if you have 3000 attack power and an enemy has 500 defense, then your skills use 2500 attack power in its formulas.

Yeah this was my assumption. Well, I was thinking it reduces the damage by that amount, but reducing attack power makes more sense.

[Ratsplat]

Originally posted by Evilsod:

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

I get the sense that it is simply taken away from attack power. Attack Powers tend to always be greater than defenses. So if you have 3000 attack power and an enemy has 500 defense, then your skills use 2500 attack power in its formulas.

Yeah this was my assumption. Well, I was thinking it reduces the damage by that amount, but reducing attack power makes more sense.

A purely, direct subtraction from damage can become a major problem if you're familiar with Dragon's dogma. You can go from dealing 0 damage, to too much damage.

[Evilsod]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

A purely, direct subtraction from damage can become a major problem if you're familiar with Dragon's dogma. You can go from dealing 0 damage, to too much damage.

It's more that it has different effects kinda like flat reduction vs percentage reduction. Flat has far more impact on multi-hit attacks that deal less per hit, percentage has more impact on big hits.

I have no idea what to expect for enemy stats though (speed, def, attack power). One of Verso's skills does say it deals more damage based on the difference in speed between you and the opponent too.

[Sargon Aelther]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

I get the sense that it is simply taken away from attack power. Attack Powers tend to always be greater than defenses. So if you have 3000 attack power and an enemy has 500 defense, then your skills use 2500 attack power in its formulas.

Yeah, you may be onto something...

[Intern Waffle]

Enemies use the same stat numbers as the players which is why several moves rely on the enemy stat differences, such as Verso having a move that is stronger the bigger the difference between his and the enemy's speed stat. That implies the enemy stats are using the same format instead of having, say, a "6/10" speed stat.

I imagine a 1000 attack stat against a 500 defense stat does 50% of the normal total maximum damage of said attack.

They *cant* tell you exactly how much defense is doing because it depends on what you're defending against. 500 defense does different numbers against a 1500 attack stat or a 2000 attack stat.

[alloy]

It's a flat reduction is before a percentage. and it seemed to take a flat amount from the damage instead of attack power.

I tested an attack that did 211 to a character with confident/50%dmg reduction and 35 defense. after I added about a 100 defense it did 165 so the flat reduction is before a percentage. and it seemed to take a flat amount from the damage instead of attack power.

i also tested it with shell (20 % dmg reduction) and that was multiplicative at the end.(60 % dmg reduction total)

[Griever]

Regardless what it does, it scales with some weapons and also increases other atttributes faster when you haven’t levelled it too much. Like other attributes.

I feel like much of the attributes are kind of useless and more about putting points where your weapon scales

[12o6u3]

Originally posted by Ratsplat:

I get the sense that it is simply taken away from attack power. Attack Powers tend to always be greater than defenses. So if you have 3000 attack power and an enemy has 500 defense, then your skills use 2500 attack power in its formulas.

It isn't like Dragon's Dogma where it reduces by an exact amount. Most games use simple formulas like this.

The problem with this theory is that Clair Obscur doesn't have an "attack" stat, it has a "damage" stat.Edit: No I'm dumb, it is called Attack Power and Power.

Also, OP is correct that all computer RPGs *should* have an appendix somewhere that explains their math, it's crazy they don't.

Originally posted by Meewec:

why do you need to know the math? as for it being obscured, try working showing the math into an rpg in a way that doesn't break reality.

TTRPGs work fine even though the rule books explain the math. Why do you think quantifying your "stats" like "level" and "experience" is immersive, but explaining how those numbers work would be immersion breaking (or whatever "reality" you think that would break...wait, would knowing how a game works break *literal reality*???)

[Sargon Aelther]

Originally posted by Intern Waffle:

They *cant* tell you exactly how much defense is doing because it depends on what you're defending against.

They can tell me the formula the game uses lol.

Originally posted by Griever:

Regardless what it does, it scales with some weapons and also increases other atttributes faster when you haven’t levelled it too much. Like other attributes.

I'm well aware, but I'd like to know the exact formula, regardless of weapon scaling.