This is not The Legend of Dragoon (nor does it try to).

[Aoitenshi]

A quick look at the trailer showed two similarities: 3 members in a party and having to press a button when you attack. But it turns out, there's another game that Expedition 33 shares even more checkboxes with, namely Super Mario RPG.

The Legend of Dragoon was the first game that showed me that even playable characters can die or get replaced, and it was also the only JRPG I played with QTE during the attack animation (each successful button press gives you flashier animation and in turn more dps). But what makes 33 fundamentally different from one of my favorite JRPGs of all time, is that it focuses on the parry/dodge mechanic instead.

What sets a turn-based mechanic apart from other games is because the game is designed to reward you when you prepare well. Do you have enough potions? Do you have enough MP? Are your equipments up to par? Did you skip too many battle encounters or let any of your party members die too many times that they became underleveled? None of this matters when you can simply dodge everything and call it a day.

That's why Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 is not The Legend of Dragoon. If you liked Super Mario RPG, then maybe you will like this game just as much. But if you like playing turn-based RPGs for being a turn-based RPG, this game is probably not for you.

[toughnails]

Originally posted by Aoitenshi:

What sets a turn-based mechanic apart from other games is because the game is designed to reward you when you prepare well. Do you have enough potions? Do you have enough MP? Are your equipments up to par? Did you skip too many battle encounters or let any of your party members die too many times that they became underleveled? None of this matters when you can simply dodge everything and call it a day.

Such an odd take, so what you're saying is if a game is turn-based you should only focus on grinding and steamrolling? I mean, I guess that's true for a lot of JRPG's, but I hate those kinds of games as I find them incredibly dull. Western made turn-based games like BG3, DOS2 or XCOM2 do not allow you to become so powerful that the strategy doesn't matter, and as a result I find them immensely more enjoyable.

But that was a tangent, back to E33. It has action elements to make the battles more engaging. It says so on the store page, you can see it in the trailers. The lead dev straight up says he's a huge fan of Sekiro. You know what you're getting into.

[Aoitenshi]

Originally posted by toughnails:

Such an odd take, so what you're saying is if a game is turn-based you should only focus on grinding and steamrolling? I mean, I guess that's true for a lot of JRPG's, but I hate those kinds of games as I find them incredibly dull. Western made turn-based games like BG3, DOS2 or XCOM2 do not allow you to become so powerful that the strategy doesn't matter, and as a result I find them immensely more enjoyable.

A good turn-based game is designed in such way that players would be able to win any given boss fights without grinding. Although, it's true that most people I know are bored from the gameplay loop that turn-based games provide.

I did play Divinity 2 for a bit, but I'm not qualified to make any comments. Honestly, I didn't get the appeal of the game despite being turn-based... which puts us on the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Originally posted by toughnails:

But that was a tangent, back to E33. It has action elements to make the battles more engaging. It says so on the store page, you can see it in the trailers. The lead dev straight up says he's a huge fan of Sekiro. You know what you're getting into.

Which leads me to question what genre this game actually is. QTE has always been a controversial mechanic especially among turn-based enjoyers. Meanwhile, players who enjoy quick-paced action wouldn't touch a turn-based mechanic with a ten-foot-pole.

[benj]

Originally posted by Aoitenshi:

None of this matters when you can simply dodge everything and call it a day.

If reading these forums taught me anything, it's that most players can't do this. You still absolutely have to plan and build a team that fits your needs, because the glass cannon lifestyle isn't for everybody.

[luc2posse]

Originally posted by Aoitenshi:

That's why Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 is not The Legend of Dragoon. If you liked Super Mario RPG, then maybe you will like this game just as much. But if you like playing turn-based RPGs for being a turn-based RPG, this game is probably not for you.

COE33 was explicitly designed as a Souls-like. If you don't like heavy Souls-like gameplay mechanics, you might not enjoy this game.

Nothing wrong with being a Souls-like, it's a very popular genre now.

It might be confusing for some people, since it doesn't have the Souls-like tag on Steam.

Of course it's an RPG at the core, but more FromSoftware inspiration for stuff like the defense system or even stats system or the battle design.
- Sandfall Interactive co-founder and Expedition 33 producer François Meurisse, "Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 Producer Talks Inspirations: FromSoftware, French Novels"

[toughnails]

Originally posted by Aoitenshi:

Originally posted by toughnails:

But that was a tangent, back to E33. It has action elements to make the battles more engaging. It says so on the store page, you can see it in the trailers. The lead dev straight up says he's a huge fan of Sekiro. You know what you're getting into.

Which leads me to question what genre this game actually is. QTE has always been a controversial mechanic especially among turn-based enjoyers. Meanwhile, players who enjoy quick-paced action wouldn't touch a turn-based mechanic with a ten-foot-pole.

QTE generally means "press X to not die" (e.g. Resident Evil 5, Bayonetta etc Xbox 360 era games), Whereas in E33 you're meant to actually watch the attack animations rather than wait for a button prompt. (There are button prompts for your own attacks though they are very easy and mostly just a distraction).

And this game has already sold 2 million copies, so it's doing rather well. Turns out if you add an action element to a turn-based game, it will start turning heads. Hopefully we see more games like this in the future.

[Cleril]

Originally posted by benj:

Originally posted by Aoitenshi:

None of this matters when you can simply dodge everything and call it a day.

If reading these forums taught me anything, it's that most players can't do this. You still absolutely have to plan and build a team that fits your needs, because the glass cannon lifestyle isn't for everybody.

The build doesn't matter if you can't press B. That's the problem.

[toughnails]

Originally posted by Cleril:

Originally posted by benj:

If reading these forums taught me anything, it's that most players can't do this. You still absolutely have to plan and build a team that fits your needs, because the glass cannon lifestyle isn't for everybody.

The build doesn't matter if you can't press B. That's the problem.

It's not a problem. You could say the same about Elden Ring. You can look up some uber OP build but if you eat every attack then you will still die to the bosses.

Just install cheats if you want to faceroll so badly, I just don't get this.

[Aoitenshi]

Originally posted by toughnails:

It's not a problem. You could say the same about Elden Ring. You can look up some uber OP build but if you eat every attack then you will still die to the bosses.

It's not a problem in Elden Ring because that's an action game. In a turn-based game though, it's a huge problem.

But I guess it all checks out in the end: It's okay for Elden Ring to require players to dodge because it's a soulslike game. And as luc2posse pointed out, 33 is also soulslike, so I guess it's acceptable to do the same.

[toughnails]

Originally posted by Aoitenshi:

Originally posted by toughnails:

It's not a problem. You could say the same about Elden Ring. You can look up some uber OP build but if you eat every attack then you will still die to the bosses.

It's not a problem in Elden Ring because that's an action game. In a turn-based game though, it's a huge problem.

But I guess it all checks out in the end: It's okay for Elden Ring to require players to dodge because it's a soulslike game. And as luc2posse pointed out, 33 is also soulslike, so I guess it's acceptable to do the same.

This is not a pure turn-based game, it's a hybrid. You're just getting hung up on a label.

[Cleril]

Originally posted by Aoitenshi:

Originally posted by toughnails:

It's not a problem. You could say the same about Elden Ring. You can look up some uber OP build but if you eat every attack then you will still die to the bosses.

It's not a problem in Elden Ring because that's an action game. In a turn-based game though, it's a huge problem.

But I guess it all checks out in the end: It's okay for Elden Ring to require players to dodge because it's a soulslike game. And as luc2posse pointed out, 33 is also soulslike, so I guess it's acceptable to do the same.

True and unfortunate. At first I loved Clair Obscur because I thought it would be Paper Mario for adults.

By the end of act 2 I realized it's just a press B simulator and that is the problem.

[benj]

Originally posted by Cleril:

Originally posted by benj:

If reading these forums taught me anything, it's that most players can't do this. You still absolutely have to plan and build a team that fits your needs, because the glass cannon lifestyle isn't for everybody.

The build doesn't matter if you can't press B. That's the problem.

If you can't press B at all, yeah. But once you have the AOE healing skill for Lune, you can make a ton of mistakes and still reliably win.

[Aoitenshi]

Originally posted by toughnails:

This is not a pure turn-based game, it's a hybrid. You're just getting hung up on a label.

True, a hybrid that invalidates both the fast-paced nature of an action game and the strategic theme of a turn-based game. There is a reason why the ATB system isn't used anymore.

[toughnails]

Originally posted by Aoitenshi:

Originally posted by toughnails:

This is not a pure turn-based game, it's a hybrid. You're just getting hung up on a label.

True, a hybrid that invalidates both the fast-paced nature of an action game and the strategic theme of a turn-based game. There is a reason why the ATB system isn't used anymore.

The ATB system was terrible, you're fumbling through menus and waiting on cooldowns while the enemies are whooping your ass. E33 is nothing like that.

Like I said the game is doing very well, and a lot of people who normally dislike turn-based games are flocking to it, so it's ultimately just you. You can try Metaphor for a more traditional JRPG experience, I guess.

[Aoitenshi]

Originally posted by toughnails:

Like I said the game is doing very well, and a lot of people who normally dislike turn-based games are flocking to it, so it's ultimately just you. You can try Metaphor for a more traditional JRPG experience, I guess.

You're exactly right on this part.

[nesoukefka]

I don't see why turn base game should be 100% strategic and couldn't also involve skill, plus it's not like the skill part is the only one, you still need to strategize in how you build your character, set up your pictos, how you use their individual ability, how your team synergise...etc... if you strategize correctly you don't even need a perfect execution, in the end their is some middle if you don't strategize then you'll have to rely more on your skill, if you strategize properly you can shorten the combat greatly (to the point of one-shoting boss if you se desire) and greatly a reduce the skill needed or even completly taking it out of the equation.