Do you think the people of Lumière are ... ? [Spoiler]

[seanmizukiphillips66]

Do you think the people of Lumière are real or not?
I'm curious to hear your thoughts, since this topic seems open to interpretation. I'd also love to know what evidence or reasoning supports your view.
Just to clarify, what I mean by 'real' is that the people of Lumière have thoughts, intentions, emotions, and perceptions—just like those outside the canvas. By 'not real,' I mean they behave like real human beings but are actually simulations, like AI.

[goodbye_bonito]

They are not real, they are part of playground. Maelle ending clearly shows it - they are now her playthings for eternity and she can mold them into any shape she wants.

[seanmizukiphillips66]

Originally posted by goodbye_bonito:

They are not real, they are part of playground. Maelle ending clearly shows it - they are now her playthings for eternity and she can mold them into any shape she wants.

Right, I came across a thread where someone from France mentioned that a song lyric suggests Lumière isn't real. Does anyone know which song they were referring to?

[Observer]

The best evidence is Verso (or copy of Verso).
Verso knows both worlds and understands best and is the best evidence without a slice of doubt. He understands that he is created. He sees that he is not real and that his life is just fake which is obvious from his choice to destroy the canvas. People of Lumiere dont have this information and wouldnt comprehend that. They only know one world. They cant think outside the box. The Lumierians exist for entertainment, just like AI for us. ANd at the same time we have to deal with people who say "AI partners are rea", which obviously all would disagree with who at the same time believe people of Lumierians are real.

But all we talk about is people and not about Gestrals or Nevrons. Why dont people argue for them? They're creations as well. Why dont you have a problem to kill/fight them?

[FORTUNE_COOCHIE]

There is a clear lack of understanting of the story. And that's mostly based on the fact that an NG+ is required to understand all the "hints" that the story does give you since the beginning.

Everything is based on chroma. The chroma is like a magical energy (think of mako in FF7). You can use it, but in return it will also use your own energy.

The people you see at Lumière, are people that Aline the mother created to NOT make her son Verso alone. You do understand that Verso, before the accident, was a depressed person.

Now, the most CONFUSING part is this one :

Throught the game, Verso old self, is depicted as a "young boy". Verso NEVER died as young. In fact, he died VOLONTUARY around the same age the copy of Verso.
While it's not explained on the game, you can see multiples times throught Maelle Nightmares/Visions that Verso took the "fire" incident to kill himself.

The only thing remaining of Verso, was this "young" version. Probably painted by Aline, his mother.

No matter what ending you do choose, you understand that Alicia/Maelle was going throught the same path as her mom.

____________

Now. The main point is this one : People that do STAY very long in the canvas, can "merge" with theirs painted self. Theirs copy, can share everything from theirs past self. That is what happens to Maelle who merges with Alicia. Thus.. towards act 3, becoming the new paintress and being one.

[FORTUNE_COOCHIE]

There is a clear lack of understanting of the story. And that's mostly based on the fact that an NG+ is required to understand all the "hints" that the story does give you since the beginning.

Everything is based on chroma. The chroma is like a magical energy (think of mako in FF7). You can use it, but in return it will also use your own energy.

The people you see at Lumière, are people that Aline the mother created to NOT make her son Verso alone. You do understand that Verso, before the accident, was a depressed person.

Now, the most CONFUSING part is this one :

Throught the game, Verso old self, is depicted as a "young boy". Verso NEVER died as young. In fact, he died VOLONTUARY around the same age the copy of Verso.
While it's not explained on the game, you can see multiples times throught Maelle Nightmares/Visions that Verso took the "fire" incident to kill himself.

The only thing remaining of Verso, was this "young" version. Probably painted by Aline, his mother.

No matter what ending you do choose, you understand that Alicia/Maelle was going throught the same path as her mom.

____________

Now. The main point is this one : People that do STAY very long in the canvas, can "merge" with theirs painted self. Theirs copy, can share everything from theirs past self. That is what happens to Maelle who merges with Alicia. Thus.. towards act 3, becoming the new paintress and being one.

While the people of Lumiere, are people who were created by Aline, they did have a "life" inside the painting.

Lune is a clear exemple of that. She had a family, and towards the end of the game, she tolds you that Maelle is going to PAINT another canvas inside the existing one that does depict real life that would allow Lune to visit a copy of "the real world".

[seanmizukiphillips66]

I forgot mention but Just to clarify, what I mean by 'real' is that the people of Lumière have thoughts, intentions, emotions, and perceptions—just like those outside the canvas. By 'not real,' I mean they behave like real human beings but are actually simulations, like AI.

[FORTUNE_COOCHIE]

Originally posted by seanmizukiphillips66:

I forgot mention but Just to clarify, what I mean by 'real' is that the people of Lumière have thoughts, intentions, emotions, and perceptions—just like those outside the canvas. By 'not real,' I mean they behave like real human beings but are actually simulations, like AI.

They do. And they have theirs own emotions and sentiments. An quick example are the gestrals.

They do share almost the same appareance, but they all have theirs own personality. Noco is also a great example. When reborn.. he does not have the same personality he once had, or memories ;)

[WZ]

Don't matter who created you or how. What matters is self awareness & autonomy. If I write a book and my characters start thinking for themselves / being autonomous / interacting without any input from me, then they're as alive & real as it matters. Sure I can burn the book, but that's mass murder by that point. The distinction is not a simple one as a well-programmed robot can come close to looking like a "soul". They do seem to be more than just well programmed robots though, so yeah, they're real as far I can tell / am concerned.

[seanmizukiphillips66]

Originally posted by FORTUNE_COOCHIE:

Originally posted by seanmizukiphillips66:

I forgot mention but Just to clarify, what I mean by 'real' is that the people of Lumière have thoughts, intentions, emotions, and perceptions—just like those outside the canvas. By 'not real,' I mean they behave like real human beings but are actually simulations, like AI.

They do. And they have theirs own emotions and sentiments. An quick example are the gestrals.

They do share almost the same appareance, but they all have theirs own personality. Noco is also a great example. When reborn.. he does not have the same personality he once had, or memories ;)

Right—also, in the painted Alicia’s letter at the end of Act 2, she mentions a third way: saving both families—the Dessendres and the painted family which contrasts with the Dessendres' belief that only one side can survive, either themselves or the painted family. Her letter gives a strong impression that the painted family, and by extension the people of Lumière, are rea. Though the third option wasn’t available for players to choose at the end of the game

[Mocles]

Originally posted by seanmizukiphillips66:

Originally posted by goodbye_bonito:

They are not real, they are part of playground. Maelle ending clearly shows it - they are now her playthings for eternity and she can mold them into any shape she wants.

Right, I came across a thread where someone from France mentioned that a song lyric suggests Lumière isn't real. Does anyone know which song they were referring to?

I think it's about this song.

Aux Lendemains non Écrits

Miroir du temps, nos histoires s’alignent,
Dans le creux de nos mains, deux mondes se dessinent.
L'un peint de rêves, où le chagrin s’efface,
L'autre, nu et réel, où notre deuil prend place.

I try to translate like :

Mirror of time our stories align,
In the palm of our hands, two worlds emerge.
One painted with dreams, where sorrow fades,
The other, bare and real, where our grief takes place.

One painted with "DREAM"
Other Bare and "REAL"

[Crimsomrider]

They are and aren't.

Art is greater than life, and to create art requires essence. To deny them - would be to deny the very soul poured into creating them, because each creation came from the heart.

Our emotions for them are real, our memories of them are real, and they were no less real to us up until that point. Their presence provides us comfort, their smiles provide joy, and their tears sadness.

Renoir claims they are not real and it is true from the perspective of his reality, yet they are all also shown to be far more complex than being just pure Chroma, their very essence being the identity of their being, capable of far more than what even their creators expected.

Lune in particular carries the same sentient awareness Maelle does, by being fully aware of what is going on and even wanting to know more about Maelle's reality (so she painted a portrait of it for her just to see a glimpse).

So instead of trying to answer a question that truly has no answer, I simply ask myself this one simple question; would the world feel lesser by their absence.

And simply go from there.

Trying to answer such complex existential question is futile, especially because the game is not without its continuity errors and avoids it by completely sidelining Lune and Scielle's existential dilemma in ACT III to a single camp conversation because the story has to move forward.

Lune has full awareness and grasp of what is going on just like Maelle does, even shows interest in knowing more about Maelle's reality. Same for Scielle who is excited by the fact their reality does not operate on the same rules as Maelle's reality.

[seanmizukiphillips66]

Originally posted by WZ:

Don't matter who created you or how. What matters is self awareness & autonomy. If I write a book and my characters start thinking for themselves / being autonomous / interacting without any input from me, then they're as alive & real as it matters. Sure I can burn the book, but that's mass murder by that point. The distinction is not a simple one as a well-programmed robot can come close to looking like a "soul". They do seem to be more than just well programmed robots though, so yeah, they're real as far I can tell / am concerned.

Yes, just because they were created doesn’t invalidate their thoughts, emotions, or feelings.

[Lucathegreat]

Of course they are - they aren't soulless NPCs or mere scripts, they've lived for centuries, they marry, reproduce, love, hate, and everything in between like the outside-human beings. They just ignore they were created by some external "Gods".

[seanmizukiphillips66]

Originally posted by Mocles:

Originally posted by seanmizukiphillips66:

Right, I came across a thread where someone from France mentioned that a song lyric suggests Lumière isn't real. Does anyone know which song they were referring to?

I think it's about this song.

Aux Lendemains non Écrits

Miroir du temps, nos histoires s’alignent,
Dans le creux de nos mains, deux mondes se dessinent.
L'un peint de rêves, où le chagrin s’efface,
L'autre, nu et réel, où notre deuil prend place.

I try to translate like :

Mirror of time our stories align,
In the palm of our hands, two worlds emerge.
One painted with dreams, where sorrow fades,
The other, bare and real, where our grief takes place.

One painted with "DREAM"
Other Bare and "REAL"

Thank you for mentioning it—I was looking for that. Based on the song, it seems the story highlights a clear contrast between the non-real and real worlds.

[Observer]

Originally posted by seanmizukiphillips66:

I forgot mention but Just to clarify, what I mean by 'real' is that the people of Lumière have thoughts, intentions, emotions, and perceptions—just like those outside the canvas. By 'not real,' I mean they behave like real human beings but are actually simulations, like AI.

They are created to act accordint to the painters intentions. So it's not real but as programmed as AI is programmed. The logical conclusion is that it's fake
Stating it's real is illogical understanding of the world.