Two Ending Criticisms (Spoilers obviously)

[Ratsplat]

1. It felt like a lot of build up, and other characters, were ignored. Especially the whole relationship system. It was all about Maelle and the Dessandre family. Lune and Sciel barely had anything to say at the end. Renoir even treated them like they were real, conversing with them instead of berating them for just being a mere painting, yet they didn't even try to negotiate. Verso was, of course, sensical in being depressed or what have you, but it still felt like he made sudden and drastic choices without acknowledging anyone else existing. It'll probably make more sense once I rewatch everything during NG+, but even Maelle felt like she went a bit overboard as well.

2. Both endings felt like they went in mostly opposite directions too much. I didn't expect it to have a happy fairy tale ending, but some sort of compromise in the middle would have been nice to see. Having played Nier, it makes you wish for a 'true' ending after everything we've gone through.

As a bonus thought, the current endings make direct sequels feel a bit tricky. Prequels and general content will go much nicer. Though I will admit there's a lot to explore. Are the paintings so real and life like because they have a soul of sorts? Can they travel between paintings? So much potential...

[Shin Happens]

While I loved the story I would absolutely agree that the game lacked a true Lumerian protagonist. It was ALL about the family. And hardly anyone ever cared about the fact that they are debating the fates of living people. Verso especially felt incredibly selfish. Maelle is selfish for her own reasons of course. But Verso in particular is someone whose reasoning I can hardly understand / sympathise with (I understand it, he may be clinically depressed and just wants it to end, no consideration for others).

So what about the people in the canvas and the fact that they are, for all that matters, alive??? Why did Lune etc not have more agency and why did we not explore how they all felt about knowing their world, and them included, is something akin to a simulation?

They would certainly plead with the Dessendres to PLEASE consider that they are not mere playthings or objects, but actual people who are alive and how destoying the canvas would be actual mass genocide, how the gommage IS mass genocide. The painters literally create life and they treat it like playthings. This is barely discussed in the game.

I really, really hope a potential DLC adds more of a Lumerian perspective and what it means for them to know they are living inside a simulated canvas world. At least Lune and Sciel should know (not necessarily all the other people who were brought back to life).

[Ratsplat]

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

While I loved the story I would absolutely agree that the game lacked a true Lumerian protagonist. It was ALL about the family. And hardly anyone ever cared about the fact that they are debating the fates of living people. Verso especially felt incredibly selfish. Maelle is selfish for her own reasons of course. But Verso in particular is someone whose reasoning I can hardly understand / sympathise with (I understand it, he may be clinically depressed and just wants it to end, no consideration for others).

So what about the people in the canvas and the fact that they are, for all that matters, alive??? Why did Lune etc not have more agency and why did we not explore how they all felt about knowing their world, and them included, is something akin to a simulation?

They would certainly plead with the Dessendres to PLEASE consider that they are not mere playthings or objects, but actual people who are alive and how destoying the canvas would be actual mass genocide, how the gommage IS mass genocide. The painters literally create life and they treat it like playthings. This is barely discussed in the game.

I really, really hope a potential DLC adds more of a Lumerian perspective and what it means for them to know they are living inside a simulated canvas world. At least Lune and Sciel should know (not necessarily all the other people who were brought back to life).

Fallout 3 did it once before. There is so much potential that I don't care if they have to retcon the whole ending. Just keep building upon what you already have and make it as flawless as possible!

[Observer]

Hasnt it all been about the Dessandres? You can start a story from any perspective. Here we are the expedition with Maelle.
However it's weird for me why would you create fake lives? Isnt Verso enough? Or was the expedition (Lumierians) made to fight? Just pawns in a conflict?
Concerning Verso, I think, he knew the obvious choice, he was a walking ghost and wanted it to end, but still could not shed of his empathy in given situations.
Plus, it was stated that he didnt want to interact with expeditioners, but there was Maelle so he joined
2. You can apply "Life keeps forcing cruel choices."

[goodbye_bonito]

Originally posted by Observer:

Hasnt it all been about the Dessandres? You can start a story from any perspective. Here we are the expedition with Maelle.
However it's weird for me why would you create fake lives? Isnt Verso enough? Or was the expedition (Lumierians) made to fight? Just pawns in a conflict?
Concerning Verso, I think, he knew the obvious choice, he was a walking ghost and wanted it to end, but still could not shed of his empathy in given situations.
Plus, it was stated that he didnt want to interact with expeditioners, but there was Maelle so he joined
2. You can apply "Life keeps forcing cruel choices."

1. Citizens which later became expeditioners are all created by real Verso. They are remnants of the Canvas he created. Which Aline wants to protect, and Renoir wants to erase. So you could ask him why he created fake lives, but well.

Or maybe it is Aline who created them? Now here I am a bit confused. City was there during the Fracture, which I assume is act of Renoir joining the canvas. So maybe Aline created Lumiere for her fake family to live in happily, then it all went to hell.

It could be that Verso has only authored that fantasy part of the world.

[Volkodlak]

I think the saga can be exploited through the real world of this game, perhaps another painter or a writer could create another fantasy world that is out of control.

[Observer]

Anyway Verso's ending is the good ending. Time heals wounds, with the canvas existing the wound remains open. You cant stop grieving by remaining in the same moment/same situation, and that moment/situation is the canvas

[Cryosx]

verso ending is probably where a sequel makes sense since it'll probably be about clea and the writers and maybe you enter a new canvas from which maelle can paint the characters you remember into it

[GameBuild]

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

While I loved the story I would absolutely agree that the game lacked a true Lumerian protagonist. It was ALL about the family. And hardly anyone ever cared about the fact that they are debating the fates of living people. Verso especially felt incredibly selfish. Maelle is selfish for her own reasons of course. But Verso in particular is someone whose reasoning I can hardly understand / sympathise with (I understand it, he may be clinically depressed and just wants it to end, no consideration for others).

So what about the people in the canvas and the fact that they are, for all that matters, alive??? Why did Lune etc not have more agency and why did we not explore how they all felt about knowing their world, and them included, is something akin to a simulation?

They would certainly plead with the Dessendres to PLEASE consider that they are not mere playthings or objects, but actual people who are alive and how destoying the canvas would be actual mass genocide, how the gommage IS mass genocide. The painters literally create life and they treat it like playthings. This is barely discussed in the game.

I really, really hope a potential DLC adds more of a Lumerian perspective and what it means for them to know they are living inside a simulated canvas world. At least Lune and Sciel should know (not necessarily all the other people who were brought back to life).

The Dessendres conflict pretty much represents how European nobility treated the lower social classes (depicted as people of Lumiere), especially during the time around the France's Belle Époque.

[Shin Happens]

Originally posted by Observer:

Anyway Verso's ending is the good ending. Time heals wounds, with the canvas existing the wound remains open. You cant stop grieving by remaining in the same moment/same situation, and that moment/situation is the canvas

While the game MAYBE wants you to believe this, how can an ending that kills thousands, probably tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of people be considered "good"?

Unless you think canvas people are just objects.

However, the game makes it pretty obvious they are not objects. They love, they dream, they have aspirations, they know sorrow, grief, happiness, they create new things, in short: they act like any other human in the real world and they are indistinguishable from real humans.

The needs of the many should always outweigh the needs of the (very) few. The Dessendres should grow up and learn how to cope with it without destroying an entire world in which they are quasi gods. For all intents and purposes the Dessendres are the creator gods of the canvas world and they show zero regard and empathy for the world and life they created.

Originally posted by GameBuild:

The Dessendres conflict pretty much represents how European nobility treated the lower social classes (depicted as people of Lumiere), especially during the time around the France's Belle Époque.

Yes, that makes sense if you consider social classes and the dynamics between them. The Dessendres are certainly in the upper class, close to the very top.

[Observer]

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

Originally posted by Observer:

Anyway Verso's ending is the good ending. Time heals wounds, with the canvas existing the wound remains open. You cant stop grieving by remaining in the same moment/same situation, and that moment/situation is the canvas

While the game MAYBE wants you to believe this, how can an ending that kills thousands, probably tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of people be considered "good"?

Unless you think canvas people are just objects.

However, the game makes it pretty obvious they are not objects. They love, they dream, they have aspirations, they know sorrow, grief, happiness, they create new things, in short: they act like any other human in the real world and they are indistinguishable from real humans.

The needs of the many should always outweigh the needs of the (very) few. The Dessendres should grow up and learn how to cope with it without destroying an entire world in which they are quasi gods. For all intents and purposes the Dessendres are the creator gods of the canvas world and they show zero regard and empathy for the world and life they created.

it's not but an illusionary world. They dont call themselves gods, they dont look at their paintings and consider it more than mere tools. That's the world they live in. It's like we create AI and tell that they just AI despite being made too humanlike.

[Shin Happens]

Originally posted by Observer:

it's not but an illusionary world. They dont call themselves gods, they dont look at their paintings and consider it more than mere tools. That's the world they live in. It's like we create AI and tell that they just AI despite being made too humanlike.

That may very well be so, and I agree that this is what the Dessendres may think and feel, but YOU get to decide in the end what to do and YOU, the player, should know better? :-D

The canvas people are not ChatGPT, they are what we would call AGI, Artificial General Intelligence, i.e. an intelligence that is literally indistinguishable from a human, an AI that can create, have dreams/hopes, is self-aware. In short: alive, just not in a biological body.

Unless you think simulated entities are fake and just objects. The general school of thought (talking about the real world now) is however that simulated beings would be just as alive as you and me. And the game has shown us that the canvas humans are literally indistinguishable from any human in the real world.

And with that in mind I find it literally impossible to choose the Verso ending, even if the Maelle ending is terrible in its own way.

[aramintai]

My main criticism is that painted world inhabitants got completely sidelined after beating the Paintress and it was all about family drama. I'm specifically talking about Sciel, Lune and Monoco. They felt like bystanders taking a backseat and watching their fate decided by the bickering family with no power to stop their world from getting destroyed. And overall, their characters weren't particularly interesting to care, maybe if companions personal quests were more fleshed out and less linear it would have made more impact. If you choose Verso ending they just stare at you disapprovingly and disappear.

And by the end I couldn't stop groaning at the absurdity of it all - real people fighting over a magical painted world where nothing is real, stakes are actually zero because everything can be repainted and characters can be painted over to make them behave in any way you want.

As for the endings Maelle staying in the painting felt like a selfish, childish and ultimately doomed escapist ending. She wanted to continue living in denial and running away from real world problems. This story is about her family coming to terms with loss of their sibling. Father and elder daughter already did, but mother and younger daughter just couldn't let go. Also, Maelle's couldn't come to terms with living in reality because she got disfigured in the fire and felt survivor's guilt, and her mother's irrational blame for her son's death. So she's got a triple combo of being guilt tripped, her rock bottom self esteem made her unable to see the future for herself in the real world and she couldn't come to terms with her brother's death, wishing to live with him and his creations in the fantasy world. She also forcibly paints adult Verso again in her wish fulfillment ending and you can see him struggle with this at the end. The guy really was tired and wanted for it to end and his family to stop agonizing over his death and move on. And he especially didn't want any of them to die because of his painting.
Anyways, I chose to wake her up, get her back to the real world and face reality. I think what painted Verso said in the end was right - she has a life ahead of her, even if she doesn't see it yet and will be ok in the end. She's a Paintress as well and gonna create her own worlds eventually, but without the heavy baggage attached to it.

Overall, this whole being addicted to a fantasy world and living a wish fulfillment fantasy reminded me of fkn mmo video games, gotta get off that stuff and touch grass eventually, before it kills you or you meaninglessly waste too much of you life there. I'm sure for some those 2D waifus are as good as real, bet let's be real here.

If they ever gonna make a sequel I'm more interested in the real world struggle between those nebulous Writers and Painters factions. Maybe make a game about worlds in books next time?

[GameBuild]

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

Originally posted by Observer:

it's not but an illusionary world. They dont call themselves gods, they dont look at their paintings and consider it more than mere tools. That's the world they live in. It's like we create AI and tell that they just AI despite being made too humanlike.

That may very well be so, and I agree that this is what the Dessendres may think and feel, but YOU get to decide in the end what to do and YOU, the player, should know better? :-D

The canvas people are not ChatGPT, they are what we would call AGI, Artificial General Intelligence, i.e. an intelligence that is literally indistinguishable from a human, an AI that can create, have dreams/hopes, is self-aware. In short: alive, just not in a biological body.

Unless you think simulated entities are fake and just objects. The general school of thought (talking about the real world now) is however that simulated beings would be just as alive as you and me. And the game has shown us that the canvas humans are literally indistinguishable from any human in the real world.

And with that in mind I find it literally impossible to choose the Verso ending, even if the Maelle ending is terrible in its own way.

I disagree. The story showed many hints that Lumiere was a simulated world. During the Gommage, people simple vanish without pain or suffering. They just turned into dust. The world looks like a painting with all those portals, creatures looking like toys reminded me Lies of Pi, and I thought to myself "maybe this world was painted", and "I really hope this isn't another "they are already dead" sort of plot". But the story was good so far and I moved forward.

[Inf]

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

While the game MAYBE wants you to believe this, how can an ending that kills thousands, probably tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of people be considered "good"?

Because they're not people.

The only living being in the canvas before Aline enters it is Verso's soul. His reincarnation fights his way back to him for decades then begs you desperately over and over to let him die and move on.

"I don't want this life."
"I don't want this life."

The fact that anyone wants to torture him against his explicit wishes to keep Alicia's dollhouse alive is beyond ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. I understand why you'd want the game to keep going and for there to be a happy ending for many of its protagonists: but that's the point. You, all of us - like Alicia? Need to let it end. Because it's not real. Renoir and Verso were unequivocally right and proven right by Maelle's ending if you (wrongly) choose it over Verso's.

It's amazing though that the studio managed to put so many players into Maelle's shoes like that. Kudos to them

[ΑΩ]

I played about 15 minutes of this game... by the time the Gommage was done and Sophie was gone I had already figured the plot twist that it was all fake, it was way too obvious if you take a moment to think about it, at which point I came here, checked what it says about the Ending, figure out I am right, Alt+F4 the game, get rid of it.

I hate ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ plot twists, I hate any narrative where the MC could have just basically done nothing and it would likely have fixed itself on its own making the entire story meaningless, one of the best game in that sense is Far Cry 4, because they literally let you end the game in 15-20 minutes if you just stay still.

I'd have rather have a simple pure evil villain with a simple pure evil goal for their actions if you are going to make something I can figure the plot twist within like 5 minutes and the ending is going to leave me feeling like it was a no win scenario.