great game, but too much whining in the middle

[genadiyrool]

like the premise and endings are great
combat and visuals too

but so much whining in between, everyone constantly crying while sad violin playing in the background
like i get it the situation is tragic, but stop moping it around the wet floor in every custscene
kinda takes a lot from what couldve been a top notch game

ps. they also expected me to feel sorry for that brush muppet dying, who appeared like once before i guess?, come on

[Wulfie ♥]

sounds like a you issue

[Vacenti]

I mean i at least understand the Noco thing, but you really think Verso and maelle being depressed is uncalled for?

[genadiyrool]

Originally posted by Vacenti:

I mean i at least understand the Noco thing, but you really think Verso and maelle being depressed is uncalled for?

not saying its uncalled for
saying its bad storytelling

does anyone really enjoyed watching hours of mopping cutscenes at the camp? are they memorable? for me they just slopped together into unified wet depressing blur

also takes a lot from endings as well imo, those sad moments should be hitting, not constantly poured onto you with different severity throughout every cutscene in the game

[babobaka]

Originally posted by genadiyrool:

Originally posted by Vacenti:

I mean i at least understand the Noco thing, but you really think Verso and maelle being depressed is uncalled for?

not saying its uncalled for
saying its bad storytelling

does anyone really enjoyed watching hours of mopping cutscenes at the camp? are they memorable? for me they just slopped together into unified wet depressing blur

also takes a lot from endings as well imo, those sad moments should be hitting, not constantly poured onto you with different severity throughout every cutscene in the game

Just because a story has unlikable characters does not mean the story is poorly written.

Remember how whiny Luke Skywalker was when Star Wars first started?

Whiny characters does not lower story quality. I do think this game story has some issues, but whiny characters are not it.

[2seks]

There are also lighthearted scenes if you camp and spend time with your teammates after milestones in the game.

[genadiyrool]

Originally posted by babobaka:

Just because a story has unlikable characters does not mean the story is poorly written.

Remember how whiny Luke Skywalker was when Star Wars first started?

Whiny characters does not lower story quality. I do think this game story has some issues, but whiny characters are not it.

hmm Luke was but he was balanced by Han, Leia and Chewbacca, maybe even droids. imagine that movie was with 5 Luke type characters instead. Villains also were an actual personality presence more than just silent or single sentence figures

like i mean one or 2 whiny characters is ok, but when almost every single one is like this, i think that becomes a drag

but maybe you right and it is also an issue of most characters being not being very charismatic

[Secanho]

I think it was a little cheesy whenever the theme song of Alicia played. It reminded me of soap operas/telenovelas, structurally-wise. Yet, it was a dire situation with a countdown on their heads. There wasnt many places for party. The counterpart was the scenes at the camp IF you played them.

(I was lowkey "happy" when Noco were gone. Their character were "Minions" level of funny. Childish.)

[genadiyrool]

Originally posted by Secanho:

I think it was a little cheesy whenever the theme song of Alicia played. It reminded me of soap operas/telenovelas, structurally-wise. Yet, it was a dire situation with a countdown on their heads. There wasnt many places for party. The counterpart was the scenes at the camp IF you played them.

(I was lowkey "happy" when Noco were gone. Their character were "Minions" level of funny. Childish.)

yeah, good comparison with telenovelas
again, i can understand that behaviour makes sense in the desperate mission scenario. probably (from watching war movies like apocalypse now, yes, people in those are also not cheerful, but not constantly overly melancholic either)
just not good storytelling, with dragged on milking of sad moments to the point where you become annoyed

i actually did feel sorry when Monoco and Esqui hugged with Verso before disappearing though. maybe because they weren't moaning throughout the whole game and actually had some personality

[babobaka]

Originally posted by genadiyrool:

hmm Luke was but he was balanced by Han, Leia and Chewbacca, maybe even droids. imagine that movie was with 5 Luke type characters instead. Villains also were an actual personality presence more than just silent or single sentence figures

like i mean one or 2 whiny characters is ok, but when almost every single one is like this, i think that becomes a drag

but maybe you right and it is also an issue of most characters being not being very charismatic

Well to be fair, Luke is whiny pretty much the whole movie, Leia also complains and give snarky remarks the whole movie, and Han also complains the whole movie.

For the entire original trilogy, this pretty much stays the same. I guess by Return of the Jedi, sarcastic remarks is reduced to just Han, and Leia and Luke becomes more stoic by 3rd movie, but first 2 movies they were constantly whining.

and let's not forget C3PO.

What sells it, is the situation and chemistry between the characters, and everyone taking turns at screwing things up, and also taking turns to have their heroic moments. That kind of balance gave flaws and strength, and giving them each a little moments of highs and lows is what had us invested in the story and the characters.

I actually have the opposite issue with this game. Too little characters are whining. Lune always seems to be little too stoic, making her character very flat. She always seem to be the level headed one. She seems little too flawless. Felt little too similar to Rey in Disney Star Wars.

[genadiyrool]

Originally posted by babobaka:

Well to be fair, Luke is whiny pretty much the whole movie, Leia also complains and give snarky remarks the whole movie, and Han also complains the whole movie.

For the entire original trilogy, this pretty much stays the same. I guess by Return of the Jedi, sarcastic remarks is reduced to just Han, and Leia and Luke becomes more stoic by 3rd movie, but first 2 movies they were constantly whining.

and let's not forget C3PO.

What sells it, is the situation and chemistry between the characters, and everyone taking turns at screwing things up, and also taking turns to have their heroic moments. That kind of balance gave flaws and strength, and giving them each a little moments of highs and lows is what had us invested in the story and the characters.

I actually have the opposite issue with this game. Too little characters are whining. Lune always seems to be little too stoic, making her character very flat. She always seem to be the level headed one. She seems little too flawless. Felt little too similar to Rey in Disney Star Wars.

well i would say complaining and whining are two different things
i really dont remember Leia whining at all, while Han does it sometimes but more in a funny, i want to just get rich not deal with your bs kind of way (but actually has a heart of gold deep down). Han is actually one of the most charismatic anti-hero types in movie cinema imo

C3PO is one of those chars that many people didn't like btw, he is in a story as a comic relief though also, not a narratively important character, something that would be an Esqui here

i would agree with you that this game has too little of characters. true, they are flat. Lune personality is pretty much Asian female researcher who is working overtime
Sciel personality is i miss my husband but ready to get it on one last time before dying
Monaco and Esqui while good are kind of supporting cast
and all three main heroes, Gustav, Verso and Maelle are almost exactly the same profound sadness personality
but while i agree on this, i still maintain game has too much whining too (not complaining, actually whining in the "oh sometimes flowers just get to wither away before they can see the sunlight" and other borderline pretentious bs sort of way

[babobaka]

Originally posted by genadiyrool:

well i would say complaining and whining are two different things
i really dont remember Leia whining at all, while Han does it sometimes but more in a funny, i want to just get rich not deal with your bs kind of way (but actually has a heart of gold deep down). Han is actually one of the most charismatic anti-hero types in movie cinema imo

C3PO is one of those chars that many people didn't like btw, he is in a story as a comic relief though also, not a narratively important character, something that would be an Esqui here

i would agree with you that this game has too little of characters. true, they are flat. Lune personality is pretty much Asian female researcher who is working overtime
Sciel personality is i miss my husband but ready to get it on one last time before dying
Monaco and Esqui while good are kind of supporting cast
and all three main heroes, Gustav, Verso and Maelle are almost exactly the same profound sadness personality
but while i agree on this, i still maintain game has too much whinning too (not complaining, actually whinning in the "oh sometimes flowers just get weather away before they can see the sunlight" and other borderline pretentious bs sort of way

I think it's ok for a story to go for a certain tone.

This game was going for the sorrowful theme going from start to finish, and the story setting is fitting for such mood as well, so I don't think that is an issue.

My guess is that you probably felt certain characters was whining too much because the characters didn't earn it. Rather than building up to the situation for such moment, letting the player see what they went through, so they can connect with the character to understand why they might feel certain way, things come little too abruptly for dramatic scenes.

For example, in the beginning when Gustave tries to shoot himself, if he actually tried to find Maelle or Lune before trying something like that, it would've been a lot easier to connect with him as a character. He gave up little too easily, and he also recovered little too easily to be believable. It just made the character look really weak and pathetic, instead of being sympathetic figure.</s>

Too often I felt like this game had the goal of "I want players to feel this", and then tried to add pieces that could create that kind of scene, which ends up making the scene feel forced.

I think that might be the issue you are having, not just "whining" characters.

[Time]

Originally posted by genadiyrool:

like the premise and endings are great
combat and visuals too

but so much whining in between, everyone constantly crying while sad violin playing in the background
like i get it the situation is tragic, but stop moping it around the wet floor in every custscene
kinda takes a lot from what couldve been a top notch game

ps. they also expected me to feel sorry for that brush muppet dying, who appeared like once before i guess?, come on

Sounds like you belong in call of duty

[genadiyrool]

Originally posted by babobaka:

I think it's ok for a story to go for a certain tone.

This game was going for the sorrowful theme going from start to finish, and the story setting is fitting for such mood as well, so I don't think that is an issue.

My guess is that you probably felt certain characters was whining too much because the characters didn't earn it. Rather than building up to the situation for such moment, letting the player see what they went through, so they can connect with the character to understand why they might feel certain way, things come little too abruptly for dramatic scenes.

For example, in the beginning when Gustave tries to shoot himself, if he actually tried to find Maelle or Lune before trying something like that, it would've been a lot easier to connect with him as a character. He gave up little too easily, and he also recovered little too easily to be believable. It just made the character look really weak and pathetic, instead of being sympathetic figure.</s>

Too often I felt like this game had the goal of "I want players to feel this", and then tried to add pieces that could create that kind of scene, which ends up making the scene feel forced.

I think that might be the issue you are having, not just "whining" characters.

yeah there is a lot of hitting on the nail in your assumptions on the issues i saw too
especially about the game going for "i want player to feel" this, without earning or building up to it properly

well that is actually i think ties into my issue with 'too much whining'. it is too much proportionally to anything else, because thats what characters mostly do, those moments should be sparsed, earned, not just shoved in

and yeah, i also agree its ok to go for a certain tone, i mean i watched some "arthouse" where thats the constant mood, like Lars von trier movies. and enjoyed it. never in a video game though. those movies are 2 hour at most, tense packed psychological pieces. this is at least a 30-hour game

i just sort of see that people are either praising the game for being perfect without mentioning anything or critique for either being 'woke' (which i guess is just a bait) or difficult combat where they cannot get the parry/dodge window right. but didn't see anyone said that the story is with great premise and great conclusion but with very mediocre middle

[Trilkin]

Originally posted by genadiyrool:

Originally posted by babobaka:

Well to be fair, Luke is whiny pretty much the whole movie, Leia also complains and give snarky remarks the whole movie, and Han also complains the whole movie.

For the entire original trilogy, this pretty much stays the same. I guess by Return of the Jedi, sarcastic remarks is reduced to just Han, and Leia and Luke becomes more stoic by 3rd movie, but first 2 movies they were constantly whining.

and let's not forget C3PO.

What sells it, is the situation and chemistry between the characters, and everyone taking turns at screwing things up, and also taking turns to have their heroic moments. That kind of balance gave flaws and strength, and giving them each a little moments of highs and lows is what had us invested in the story and the characters.

I actually have the opposite issue with this game. Too little characters are whining. Lune always seems to be little too stoic, making her character very flat. She always seem to be the level headed one. She seems little too flawless. Felt little too similar to Rey in Disney Star Wars.

well i would say complaining and whining are two different things
i really dont remember Leia whining at all, while Han does it sometimes but more in a funny, i want to just get rich not deal with your bs kind of way (but actually has a heart of gold deep down). Han is actually one of the most charismatic anti-hero types in movie cinema imo

C3PO is one of those chars that many people didn't like btw, he is in a story as a comic relief though also, not a narratively important character, something that would be an Esqui here

i would agree with you that this game has too little of characters. true, they are flat. Lune personality is pretty much Asian female researcher who is working overtime
Sciel personality is i miss my husband but ready to get it on one last time before dying
Monaco and Esqui while good are kind of supporting cast
and all three main heroes, Gustav, Verso and Maelle are almost exactly the same profound sadness personality
but while i agree on this, i still maintain game has too much whining too (not complaining, actually whining in the "oh sometimes flowers just get to wither away before they can see the sunlight" and other borderline pretentious bs sort of way

It's French, borderline pretentious is what they do. It's like playing a proper Japanese JRPG and having to steel yourself for anime ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and the trope storm that comes with them. It comes with the territory of the art form.

I don't think you're wrong about Sciel or Lune, by the way. They're somewhat stereotypical, mostly one-note characters that are carried by generally well-written dialogue and quality English VA work. That said, they're also very much not the focus of the story for reasons. The main three being similar in personality is entirely intentional, though.

Maelle/Alisia and Verso on different sides of the same family tragedy means they're going to have similar stories. Verso's entire existence kinda sucks for him, and Maelle's 'real life' existence sucks as well. Gustave is a painted character inspired by both real!Verso and Renoir to give Maelle a familiar familial figure in her life, so his similarities to them are intentional.

Lune and Sciel are similar. Lune is a painted representation of Aline and her workaholic personality before the real Verso died. Sciel is a painted representation of Clea and her general fatalistic whimsy. It doesn't excuse them for being one-note characters, but it is probably intended all the same to make you think a little bit harder about the ending choice. Maelle's existence within the painting will be more pleasant, but hollow while existence outside of it will be familiar and depthful human existence with tremendous suffering due to her disfigurement. That's how I think you're intended to read it, anyway.

To respond to Noco's death, that isn't really a party moment - that's a Monoco moment. That both establishes that Monoco has some depth of personality and isn't just the wacky blue mage of the party while also setting up the later stages of his relationship dialogue/mini quest.

[Fanta]

At the end of Act 1, I skipped a cutscene for the first time; frankly, I was bored. The drawn-out grieving felt like a cheap (because too easy) way to get players emotionally invested. I bet many were in tears, while many others were thinking, "Oh, just get on with the game!"