Endings and Act 3 side quests (SPOILERS)

[Crescent Dusk]

After going through the endings, Act 3 feels like a fakeout or superfluous.

You help Lune with her parent quest and convince her to find her voice and stop being haunted by the shadow of her parents' expectations.

You help Sciel regain hope about reuniting with her husband and the revelation that Esquie saved her from her suicide attempt gives her a new lease on life.

You give Monoco hope by bringing back Noco and starting a grudging path of reconciliation with Golgra.

You gain insight about Esquie's relationship with Francois and Francois just acting out because he's missing Clea and awaiting her return visit (which likely won't happen because she's focused on war with the writers and has abandoned the Canvas).

At the beginning of Act 3 Verso was clearly cognizant that Renoir was going to erase the Canvas, and seemingly wanted and accepted the outcome. But Maelle manages to convince him to help her rescue her friends and give the world a chance, which at the time he buys into and escapes with her.

But then you get to the end of Act 3 with the endings and it seems like it's just wasted time. The endings still show Verso wanting for some reason to still die, still tired and hopeless regardless of all the good he's flourished in the life of the Canvas inhabitants.

Alicia's ending is clearly painted as the wrong outcome, where she devolves into delusional tyranny if the canvas is kept and Verso is somehow turned into a bitter puppet.

So the game wants you to pursue Verso's ending instead, which is just a second take of the beginning of Act 3. Erase it all. Send everyone back to the petals, Lune looks absolutely dejected, and Verso mopes his way into oblivion. It's supposed to be the good ending because Alicia doesn't degrade into tyranny and die early following the path of her mother. But then it shows that the family is not really that restored. Clea still looks as annoyed as ever. The parents are grieving, and now Alicia is stuck with a sister who pays her no mind, she's mute and disabled, with aging and grieving parents.

And the world we are supposed to grow attached to and root for? Gone. How can a sequel even be fashioned out of such divergent endings? The world either exists or it does not. Even in Alicia's ending where the world exists, it's just borrowed time anyways since Renoir or Clea will destroy the canvas when Alicia dies.

The fakeout even comes with the dialogue related to doing the Act 3 relationship side missions for each party member. Lune echoes the lessons Verso teaches her, as do Maelle and Sciel back at Renoir. It seems like it might be impactful to have done these quests, but then we are shown it doesn't really matter. The player agency in the ending is two choices of unsatisfying results, and it feels like Act 3 was just padding by that point and the story could have ended at the beginning of Act 3 instead, since Maelle to the very end was still in denial.

[EternalSilver]

Completely agree with everything you said here but the game has a deeper problem than that. The endings don't address the fact that the entire world is made of sentient feeling beings capable of living their own lives. Any attempt at trying to paint verso's ending as the good 1 is actively saying it's a good idea to genocide an entire world because of 1 family's issues.

I don't care if a Desendre spends their entire life in the canvas wasting away I don't think that's a good reason to just do what is tantamount to destroying an entire world just to try & force them to develop healthy coping mechanisms.

The developers so desperately wanted to keep this message about grief they ignored all the conversations & character developments between Verso & the expedition just so they could follow through on it anyway. I don't think they followed the growth of the characters to their natural conclusion.

[Lukas]

It just shows how painted Verso was indeed very similiar to the real Verso. Real Verso died in order to save Alicia, Painted Verso died to save Alicia and his "mother" too. Sentient or no, the people of the Canvas are not real. We are also told that the whole Canvas is alive only thanks to that little piece of Real Verso's soul. He is enslaved, forced to paint, something that he despised as a kid cause he prefered music. The whole world was alive cause that soul was enslaved so it is indeed the good ending the one that erase the canvas.

[Crescent Dusk]

Originally posted by Lukas:

It just shows how painted Verso was indeed very similiar to the real Verso. Real Verso died in order to save Alicia, Painted Verso died to save Alicia and his "mother" too. Sentient or no, the people of the Canvas are not real. We are also told that the whole Canvas is alive only thanks to that little piece of Real Verso's soul. He is enslaved, forced to paint, something that he despised as a kid cause he prefered music. The whole world was alive cause that soul was enslaved so it is indeed the good ending the one that erase the canvas.

That is not what I take issue with. I take issue with Act 3 in view of this very point you are making. The logic makes the whole act superfluous.

Alicia fails no matter what. Doing the companion side quests has no meaning. Helping the Gestrals and Monoco and Esquie has no meaning. It is all meant to be erased. Defeating the Endless Tower and finding the story about Clea and Simon is pointless.

There is no growth to Alicia, because it is all a fakeout of her growing. She actually doesn't grow, she is always stuck in denial and Verso has to force her out.

Helping Alicia meet her painted self and helping her move on apparently has no impact on Alicia either. Verso's interactions in Act 3 don't change him in any way, he still has the same outlook as if he didn't do them.

The entire agency of Act 3 is made moot. The point about the ending could have just been made at the end of Act 2 and Verso could have just helped Renoir push Alicia out right then and there.

[EternalSilver]

Originally posted by Lukas:

It just shows how painted Verso was indeed very similiar to the real Verso. Real Verso died in order to save Alicia, Painted Verso died to save Alicia and his "mother" too. Sentient or no, the people of the Canvas are not real. We are also told that the whole Canvas is alive only thanks to that little piece of Real Verso's soul. He is enslaved, forced to paint, something that he despised as a kid cause he prefered music. The whole world was alive cause that soul was enslaved so it is indeed the good ending the one that erase the canvas.

Whilst it's true that there's a parallel between painted verso & real verso in that regard I don't think it's useful to disregard the wiping out of a world of sentient beings solely because they aren't 'real' to the Desendres & by extension the rest of the people in their world, if we follow that logic to its extreme the Desendres family also isn't real. Merely another painted world to us at least.

Also if Verso truly hated painting would he have created such a world? I don't think so especially when there's dialogue about how they used to escape to that world & play together.

Now if I recall correctly weren't there projections of verso's soul in the final dungeon talking about how perhaps he should continue after all? If I'm remembering this correctly then this is consistent with the painted verso showing signs of maybe wanting to continue living after all.

I'd also like to draw attention to another point Aline, their mum escaped to that world & created a painted family to accompany her but how did she paint Maelle's counterpart? Exactly as she is post-fire. Disfigured likely in pain & unable to properly speak. If she was so desperate for her family before the fire why didn't she paint her as she was before the fire?

I think there's some truth when painted Renoir says that in destroying the canvas all they achieve is destroying the last tie between them. They seem very cold & distant from 1 another & on some level seem to blame Maelle for the death of Verso even if they won't admit it outright.

Personally for me it comes down to valuing the existence of those within the canvas than 1 family that needs to just go see a therapist.

There's a log by painted Verso about how he isn't a traitor & that he's just trying to save everyone but in the end I fail to see how what he does can be considered as anything but a betrayal.

[Crescent Dusk]

Originally posted by EternalSilver:

Originally posted by Lukas:

It just shows how painted Verso was indeed very similiar to the real Verso. Real Verso died in order to save Alicia, Painted Verso died to save Alicia and his "mother" too. Sentient or no, the people of the Canvas are not real. We are also told that the whole Canvas is alive only thanks to that little piece of Real Verso's soul. He is enslaved, forced to paint, something that he despised as a kid cause he prefered music. The whole world was alive cause that soul was enslaved so it is indeed the good ending the one that erase the canvas.

Whilst it's true that there's a parallel between painted verso & real verso in that regard I don't think it's useful to disregard the wiping out of a world of sentient beings solely because they aren't 'real' to the Desendres & by extension the rest of the people in their world, if we follow that logic to its extreme the Desendres family also isn't real. Merely another painted world to us at least.

Also if Verso truly hated painting would he have created such a world? I don't think so especially when there's dialogue about how they used to escape to that world & play together.

Now if I recall correctly weren't there projections of verso's soul in the final dungeon talking about how perhaps he should continue after all? If I'm remembering this correctly then this is consistent with the painted verso showing signs of maybe wanting to continue living after all.

I'd also like to draw attention to another point Aline, their mum escaped to that world & created a painted family to accompany her but how did she paint Maelle's counterpart? Exactly as she is post-fire. Disfigured likely in pain & unable to properly speak. If she was so desperate for her family before the fire why didn't she paint her as she was before the fire?

I think there's some truth when painted Renoir says that in destroying the canvas all they achieve is destroying the last tie between them. They seem very cold & distant from 1 another & on some level seem to blame Maelle for the death of Verso even if they won't admit it outright.

Personally for me it comes down to valuing the existence of those within the canvas than 1 family that needs to just go see a therapist.

There's a log by painted Verso about how he isn't a traitor & that he's just trying to save everyone but in the end I fail to see how what he does can be considered as anything but a betrayal.

It just feels like there is no reactivity in an RPG to your feats or choices. It's an illusion of choice when there really is none.

It really feels very Mass Effect 3 endings kind of scenario where you just get a different color version of a depressing outcome with your in-game feats and completion doing absolutely nothing to impact the outcome or shape the character outlooks and behavior.

[Kashra Fall]

Verso's ultimate goal from moment 1, was to kill the paintress's heart (Not the mother.) to put an end to the canvas. He was manipulating Maelle and let Gustave die because Gustave would of caused more issues than solutions, he said so himself when Maelle asked him if he could of saved Gustave or not.

Maelle, or Alicia, simply wanted a place where they were happy again and if it meant living in her brothers final work of art? So be it. She was just a grieving ball in the world and everyone criticized her. The way Clea laid into her before she became Maelle was nothing short of horrible sibling reactions and even when she was turning into Maelle, she was like "Welp, not a big deal." when in fact it was lol. Despite knowing where she was, they made no effort in assisting her, but watching her, but suddenly started to care about her when she knew the truth.

Personally, I loved Verso's ending. Why? Because the family got closure. The fight over Verso's final work of art was over, and he was laid to rest properly with everyone having a memorium.

Maelles ending was like a horror movie lol. That flash at the end showing her face was terrifying.

The kid doing the canvas all that time though, keeping things in check? I Had a feeling it was Verso and he never liked painting, which is why I love the little easter egg with the pianos changing the tune of the played song when you switch to different characters. Everyone was basic, except for verso, which sounded like a real pianist.

All in all a fantastic game, except for the simon fight which makes no sense to me. Clea was a strong painter. Simon was a painted character who somehow has the powers of a painter and does with ease, what Renoir, the paintress, clea or even Maelle cannot. He's the only ill thought out character in the game imo.

[Mauman]

If you want to blame someone, blame Maelle/Alicia.

She backtracked on her promise of recreating the world and then leaving the canvas, leaving Verso with no choice but to intervene.

[Sledge]

What makes the ending brilliant is the fact that both sides are right in some ways and wrong in others. Act 3 exists as a means to let you do some cool extra stuff (like fighting the extra snake in the sky) while also providing additional context to Painting Verso’s relationship to the world. Act 3 is essentially optional, which is why you’re allowed to go straight to fight Lenoir if you so choose.

On the one hand, erasing the canvas and this entire world filled with sentient life is wrong. Their lives shouldn’t be any less valuable than the lives of the family.

On the other hand, Alicia staying in the canvas is wrong. It’s not the proper way to grieve and to deal with her life. It works all as one great metaphor for grief, depression, suicide and maladaptive daydreaming. It’s also wrong for her to force Paint-Verso to live. She can’t let go of him and forces this poor guy to live in hell. He has to be immortal and watch as everyone he cares about dies. The Act 3 side quest where you lay the Paint-Alicia to rest does a great job of letting the player know why Paint-Verso wants to die.

[Leopanther]

Originally posted by Kashra Fall:

Everyone was basic, except for verso, which sounded like a real pianist.

Just wanted to point this out - Verso isn't the only one that knows to play the piano. Sciel plays just as beautifully with a different melody. There's also Gustav, who knows how to play chords but doesn't play a melody.


I agree with the points made about the ending. I found neither ending a satisfying conclusion cause both feel like a 'bad end' for the world of the canvas and the characters in it that I've really come to like. It doesn't feel fair that Lune, Sciel, Monoco and Esquie went through all that just to end up being erased or living in a fake happy world (which still gets erased as soon as Maelle dies from staying in too long).

[XxX_/Corny_Burrito\_XxX]

Originally posted by Leopanther:

Originally posted by Kashra Fall:

Everyone was basic, except for verso, which sounded like a real pianist.

Just wanted to point this out - Verso isn't the only one that knows to play the piano. Sciel plays just as beautifully with a different melody. There's also Gustav, who knows how to play chords but doesn't play a melody.


I agree with the points made about the ending. I found neither ending a satisfying conclusion cause both feel like a 'bad end' for the world of the canvas and the characters in it that I've really come to like. It doesn't feel fair that Lune, Sciel, Monoco and Esquie went through all that just to end up being erased or living in a fake happy world (which still gets erased as soon as Maelle dies from staying in too long).

It's almost like this is the point regarding the endings because that's how it's supposed to be.

[Bad Distraction Carnifex]

You're not entire wrong but I think the overarching story here isn't about the canvas we're playing within.

The overarching story is about the painters and writers. We're just dipping our toes in the mythos to come.

[Shadowness]

The canvas in the game represents either a short term escape to process something traumatic, or it can become your prison. The game tries to make you attached to the world just as Alicia has become attached too. The choice of stepping away from that world and facing the harsh reality is meant to feel bad, not good. But reality is often that, and the good is what we take away from it.

During the funeral scene, it felt both sad and cathartic. The entire story was simply the mind trying to cope with verso's death. Verso's painting on which the entire world was built in represents the disillusioned ideal of pretending that Verso is still around as a way to cope with his passing. They don't accept that he is gone. And by keeping his possessions around, they can continue to do so.

The dilemma of the story comes from how a simple memory trinket, being Verso's painting, becomes the reason for the family's predicament of being stuck in grief and disillusionment. Renoir wants to destroy any references of Verso to force reality down onto the family. There is no in between of being allowed to keep the painting to remind them of Verso while still having successfully processed Verso's death and moving on. Hence why both choices feel almost unsatisfactory as most people were probably wanting that.

[Crescent Dusk]

Originally posted by Shadowness:

The canvas in the game represents either a short term escape to process something traumatic, or it can become your prison. The game tries to make you attached to the world just as Alicia has become attached too. The choice of stepping away from that world and facing the harsh reality is meant to feel bad, not good. But reality is often that, and the good is what we take away from it.

During the funeral scene, it felt both sad and cathartic. The entire story was simply the mind trying to cope with verso's death. Verso's painting on which the entire world was built in represents the disillusioned ideal of pretending that Verso is still around as a way to cope with his passing. They don't accept that he is gone. And by keeping his possessions around, they can continue to do so.

The dilemma of the story comes from how a simple memory trinket, being Verso's painting, becomes the reason for the family's predicament of being stuck in grief and disillusionment. Renoir wants to destroy any references of Verso to force reality down onto the family. There is no in between of being allowed to keep the painting to remind them of Verso while still having successfully processed Verso's death and moving on. Hence why both choices feel almost unsatisfactory as most people were probably wanting that.

I didn't mean to ask to explain the ending. I know what these themes are. I just think they're unsatisfying and contradictory. The cadence of Act 3 is undermined by the fact there is no true progression from Act 2.


When you play an RPG, you come to expect REACTIVITY and consequence of many of the choices.

This is why KCD2 and BG3 stand out, and why Mass Effect 3 stands out as an example of the opposite, where a single choice at the end is the only impact on the story, and it's just a variation of unsatisfying outcomes while everything else done in the game is discarded.


To be honest, I don't come to games to be preached to or to be exposed to some cynical worldview. People play games to escape and feel control they otherwise lack in the real world. They don't need a reminder of the sad cases where people are failed by circumstances in life they have no control over.

If I play in an RPG and follow through all these important character development side quests that seem to hint at character evolution only to be hit by a fakeout and told that it doesn't matter because either way all of them are headed for oblivion one way or another, that's just a recipe for pissing off players and making them feel like their investment to the world and efforts put into it were a waste of time. Because they had no real hand in the outcome. Whether Alicia lives in the real world isolated and deeply crippled or gets lost as a tyrant in a painting is not some satisfying experience one closes a game with.

If this were some visual novel, fine. But an expectation of the RPG genre, especially western RPGs is the theme of choice and agency in story and character progression. And it feels like they were building to so much progression in Act 3 only to pull the rug out from under the player and do to Lune and Sciel and Monoco and Alicia what they did. And to have Verso seemingly believe in more possibilities and enjoying his newfound relationships and duties, only to have a case of complete 180 in the final scene for contrived reasons.

Because the talk Renoir gave Alicia in Act II is the same as Act III, yet somehow Verso still chooses to fight him instead of side with him, only to turn on Alicia because the writers wanted a fakeout.

[Shadowness]

Originally posted by Crescent Dusk:

Originally posted by Shadowness:

The canvas in the game represents either a short term escape to process something traumatic, or it can become your prison. The game tries to make you attached to the world just as Alicia has become attached too. The choice of stepping away from that world and facing the harsh reality is meant to feel bad, not good. But reality is often that, and the good is what we take away from it.

During the funeral scene, it felt both sad and cathartic. The entire story was simply the mind trying to cope with verso's death. Verso's painting on which the entire world was built in represents the disillusioned ideal of pretending that Verso is still around as a way to cope with his passing. They don't accept that he is gone. And by keeping his possessions around, they can continue to do so.

The dilemma of the story comes from how a simple memory trinket, being Verso's painting, becomes the reason for the family's predicament of being stuck in grief and disillusionment. Renoir wants to destroy any references of Verso to force reality down onto the family. There is no in between of being allowed to keep the painting to remind them of Verso while still having successfully processed Verso's death and moving on. Hence why both choices feel almost unsatisfactory as most people were probably wanting that.

I didn't mean to ask to explain the ending. I know what these themes are. I just think they're unsatisfying and contradictory. The cadence of Act 3 is undermined by the fact there is no true progression from Act 2.


When you play an RPG, you come to expect REACTIVITY and consequence of many of the choices.

This is why KCD2 and BG3 stand out, and why Mass Effect 3 stands out as an example of the opposite, where a single choice at the end is the only impact on the story, and it's just a variation of unsatisfying outcomes while everything else done in the game is discarded.


To be honest, I don't come to games to be preached to or to be exposed to some cynical worldview. People play games to escape and feel control they otherwise lack in the real world. They don't need a reminder of the sad cases where people are failed by circumstances in life they have no control over.

If I play in an RPG and follow through all these important character development side quests that seem to hint at character evolution only to be hit by a fakeout and told that it doesn't matter because either way all of them are headed for oblivion one way or another, that's just a recipe for pissing off players and making them feel like their investment to the world and efforts put into it were a waste of time. Because they had no real hand in the outcome. Whether Alicia lives in the real world isolated and deeply crippled or gets lost as a tyrant in a painting is not some satisfying experience one closes a game with.

If this were some visual novel, fine. But an expectation of the RPG genre, especially western RPGs is the theme of choice and agency in story and character progression. And it feels like they were building to so much progression in Act 3 only to pull the rug out from under the player and do to Lune and Sciel and Monoco and Alicia what they did. And to have Verso seemingly believe in more possibilities and enjoying his newfound relationships and duties, only to have a case of complete 180 in the final scene for contrived reasons.

Because the talk Renoir gave Alicia in Act II is the same as Act III, yet somehow Verso still chooses to fight him instead of side with him, only to turn on Alicia because the writers wanted a fakeout.

Which talk? In Act II, it was the painted Renoir that talked to Alicia? Painted Renoir was with the paintress as its creation in preserving their lives and stopping their demolishment. Painted Renoir is not the same as the Real Renoir.

I admit my confusion over Verso's response at the ending but my understanding is that the real Renoir wanted to destroy the Canvas in its entirety where as Verso only desired Alicia's happiness and his death. After Act II, Verso was gommaged by Renoir, but then kept alive by Alicia's chroma.

I believe out of a sense of loyalty to Alicia as the original Verso was the one who died saving Alicia out of the fire, he wanted to stop Renoir from destroying the canvas which meant so much to Alicia, but yet, also let himself rest in peace.

[Pariwak]

The main issue I have with act 3 is that Renoir is about to destroy everything unchallenged but some reason there's no urgency in the quest line. You're free to do all the optional content first. I think it would make more sense at the start of act 3 to have a mandatory quest where you gather the dead expeditioners and then immediately go to Lumiere to stop Renoir.

Following that logic, after Renoir is out of the canvas you'll be free to do all the side content and and leave the canvas ever so often (when you close the game) to be with your real family and mend those relationships. Everyone lives happily ever after.

But that's kind of a boring idealistic conclusion and I can understand why the devs wanted to make a more impactful message of not using escapism as a way to avoid your duties while wasting your life, even if they couldn't get done in an elegant way. Personally I resonated with the messaging even though it made the plot weaker.