Anyone else feeling mixed feelings about the combat system (emphasis on dodges/parries)?

[Griever]

I actually like the game now, 20+ hours in and in act 2, the story is carrying me to the end.But is anyone feeling unsure whether they like the combat system or not, compared to classical turn based? Take Persona games or Metaphor in comparison.

I feel that it's exciting, yes. It's basically adding a souls mechanic to fights.
But it feels like the combat system is all about parrying/dodging.
Simply put, your stats and pictos help you mitigate the damage but you'll still get erased if you ignore parries/dodges, and the entire combat system evolves as the game goes on, to parrying/dodging over 10-20 repeated attacks by various enemies (I haven't even beaten the Chromatic or hard enemies yet).

To the point it almost becomes a rhythm/sound game rather than turn based. And in fact I would go so far as saying that it trivialises the turn based combat.

Take a pure turn based combat like Metaphor/Persona, because you don't have these mechanics, the focus is purely on strategy and builds and making the most of every turn. And when the enemy attacks, you get hit all the time, all you can do is apply SHELL or something to protect a little. Whilst in Clair Obscur, it's all about learning the moves of the enemy.

So my conclusion is...It's a cool combat system.
But I don't know if it would stand the test of time for say, a second game.
There's a reason that for over a decade, the Japanese RPGs had the classical turn based and didn't add these mechanics. They weren't stupid.

I might also add that the "difficulty" of dodging/parries in Clair Obscur, to me, is entirely artificial. It's the camera angles which mess up your depth perception, and you often have no clue what the enemy is doing and when he'll attack (you can actually turn off camera movement in settings, which completely makes dodges/parries so easy).

PS: So far I am in Act 2 and just beat one Axon. I very much enjoy the game and story. Finally growing on the party dynamics with Verso. Just making a remark on my playthrough.

[Jonas™]

Yeah, I agree with most of this. Especially the dodge/parry system invalidating the entire character build system. If you can 90% or better on parry you can build however you want, but if you are bad at the timings you are pigeon-holed into specific defensive builds and stats. Which makes every boss encounter take 10x as long, because you are a) doing less damage, and b) generating FAR less AP so half the time you don't have enough to use an ability ever turn and are using and attack skill.

I wish I had known how tight and unintuitive the dodge/parry windows were before buying it, because I wouldn't have. Once I figured out that the entire combat system was built around parrying every attack I was past the refund window. I've played a few other Souls-like games before and eventually picked up the timings and beat them on normal or higher difficulties. The attack timing in E33, however, just feel awful and I can't really specify exactly to why. All I can say is, for me at least, the dodge/parry timing feels way, WAY worse than any other game I have played with this type of mechanic.

I just stopped playing right before the end of Act 1, I feel like I wasted $60, honestly. Maybe I'll pick it up again later if they add a setting that lets you tweak how forgiving the evade window is.

[Griever]

Originally posted by Jonas™:

Yeah, I agree with most of this. Especially the dodge/parry system invalidating the entire character build system. If you can 90% or better on parry you can build however you want, but if you are bad at the timings you are pigeon-holed into specific defensive builds and stats. Which makes every boss encounter take 10x as long, because you are a) doing less damage, and b) generating FAR less AP so half the time you don't have enough to use an ability ever turn and are using and attack skill.

I wish I had known how tight and unintuitive the dodge/parry windows were before buying it, because I wouldn't have. Once I figured out that the entire combat system was built around parrying every attack I was past the refund window. I've played a few other Souls-like games before and eventually picked up the timings and beat them on normal or higher difficulties. The attack timing in E33, however, just feel awful and I can't really specify exactly to why. All I can say is, for me at least, the dodge/parry timing feels way, WAY worse than any other game I have played with this type of mechanic.

I just stopped playing right before the end of Act 1, I feel like I wasted $60, honestly. Maybe I'll pick it up again later if they add a setting that lets you tweak how forgiving the evade window is.

I think the parry/dodge window gets easier with each difficulty, expert being the one where your timing needs to be absolutely perfect (though I hear it's still hard on normal especially during Act 2 and 3).

I don't share your problems with the system, my critique is more about whether a true turn based is truly inferior or not. But I can totally see how someone that hates depending on reflexes (parries/dodges) and expecting a classic JRPG would absolutely hate this and be unable to play.

Maybe playing on story mode/easy would be ideal for you?

[Hero of the Imperium]

I don't think the dodges or parries are well implemented. A lot of the later enemies just do weird floaty nonsense water ballet moves where they speed up or slow down unnaturally or are so gigantic to where you don't know what to look at (see : the two axons you fight as part of the main story). Another problem is that if you're on a lower end rig you will be screwed by the framerate sometimes, and also since you can't control the camera you sometimes you just don't get a good look at an enemy because they might be obscured by the angle and one of the party members partially blocking the view.
Also the enemy attacks don't have a consistent logic to them. Sometimes an enemy does a jump attack and it's a dodge, sometimes you have to jump yourself. It would be better if all enemy jump attacks were dodged by jumping because then you don't have to wait to see if there's a yellow icon or not.

But also the first two acts are challenging, but in the third act the game actually becomes incredibly easy. Like they give you a picto that lets you break the 9999 damage limit and get extensions on your base attack.

[Hero of the Imperium]

Originally posted by Griever:

Originally posted by Jonas™:

Yeah, I agree with most of this. Especially the dodge/parry system invalidating the entire character build system. If you can 90% or better on parry you can build however you want, but if you are bad at the timings you are pigeon-holed into specific defensive builds and stats. Which makes every boss encounter take 10x as long, because you are a) doing less damage, and b) generating FAR less AP so half the time you don't have enough to use an ability ever turn and are using and attack skill.

I wish I had known how tight and unintuitive the dodge/parry windows were before buying it, because I wouldn't have. Once I figured out that the entire combat system was built around parrying every attack I was past the refund window. I've played a few other Souls-like games before and eventually picked up the timings and beat them on normal or higher difficulties. The attack timing in E33, however, just feel awful and I can't really specify exactly to why. All I can say is, for me at least, the dodge/parry timing feels way, WAY worse than any other game I have played with this type of mechanic.

I just stopped playing right before the end of Act 1, I feel like I wasted $60, honestly. Maybe I'll pick it up again later if they add a setting that lets you tweak how forgiving the evade window is.

I think the parry/dodge window gets easier with each difficulty, expert being the one where your timing needs to be absolutely perfect (though I hear it's still hard on normal especially during Act 2 and 3).

I don't share your problems with the system, my critique is more about whether a true turn based is truly inferior or not. But I can totally see how someone that hates depending on reflexes (parries/dodges) and expecting a classic JRPG would absolutely hate this and be unable to play.

Maybe playing on story mode/easy would be ideal for you?

I like turn based RPGs, I like action games but I don't want a hybrid of the two. The comfort of turn based games is that they move when I want them to, I don't want a janky "it's like dark souls but not really" parry system. It either needed to be refined more or cut.

[DoteiAnima]

i agree, to me putting the difficulty in dodging attacks instead of strategy kills the fun out of the turn based gameplay, just isnt really my genre

[Tenshu]

Originally posted by DoteiAnima:

i agree, to me putting the difficulty in dodging attacks instead of strategy kills the fun out of the turn based gameplay, just isnt really my genre

I don't have a problem with it but maybe they could have added in skills that aid or guarantee the next group parry or some ♥♥♥♥? Call it Foresight or something and give it to Sciel lol.

[zero]

i have no idea why people think reaction based timing defensive mechanics are "souls-like" in any manner, this isn't an ARPG

this is paper mario, and like in paper mario you get a bunch of different timed defensive tools, with block being far more liberal then the super-parry.

it's nothing new, it just gives a bit more for the player to do, which i'd say is a good thing

[FhqwhTODD]

Yes. It's quite terrible.

[DoteiAnima]

Originally posted by zero:

i have no idea why people think reaction based timing defensive mechanics are "souls-like" in any manner, this isn't an ARPG

this is paper mario, and like in paper mario you get a bunch of different timed defensive tools, with block being far more liberal then the super-parry.

it's nothing new, it just gives a bit more for the player to do, which i'd say is a good thing

well because in paper mario most attacks didnt oneshot you, and the devs were literally inspired by sekiro.

[Senki]

nah i loved it

But I say this as someone who really loves parry/dodging focused games with hard enemies so it was basically made for me. Most people who complain seem to be people who don't really play those games.

They took a risk by attracting jrpg fans into this type of game but it paid off for people that are into it

[zero]

Originally posted by DoteiAnima:

Originally posted by zero:

i have no idea why people think reaction based timing defensive mechanics are "souls-like" in any manner, this isn't an ARPG

this is paper mario, and like in paper mario you get a bunch of different timed defensive tools, with block being far more liberal then the super-parry.

it's nothing new, it just gives a bit more for the player to do, which i'd say is a good thing

well because in paper mario most attacks didnt oneshot you, and the devs were literally inspired by sekiro.

most attacks do not one shot you in this game either, is the thing, mortal attacks, perhaps, but this game also has multiple rez abilities for low AP counts, not even accounting for items.

thats what balance is, afterall

and 'inspired' doesn't really mean anything, what matters is simply how it plays, saying its inspired by some game doesn't mean much when its fundamentally doing the same mechanics from a well loved game from 20 years ago.

it's not the first turn based game to give the player more options, it wont be the last either.

[DoteiAnima]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by DoteiAnima:

well because in paper mario most attacks didnt oneshot you, and the devs were literally inspired by sekiro.

most attacks do not one shot you in this game either, is the thing, mortal attacks, perhaps, but this game also has multiple rez abilities for low AP counts, not even accounting for items.

and 'inspired' doesn't really mean anything, what matters is simply how it plays, saying its inspired by some game doesn't mean much when its fundamentally doing the same mechanics from a well loved game from 20 years ago.

it's not the first turn based game to give the player more options, it wont be the last either.

still feels like sekiro to me so what can i tell you lol? people thinks that because it plays like that to them. simple as that.

[Captain Frye]

The combat system relies on QTE. If you are good at QTE, you don't need careful planning. It's all about optimizing damage and dodging/parrying.
It's not necessarily bad. I had a lot of fun with this game. But the replayability is non existent imo.

[zero]

Originally posted by DoteiAnima:

Originally posted by zero:

most attacks do not one shot you in this game either, is the thing, mortal attacks, perhaps, but this game also has multiple rez abilities for low AP counts, not even accounting for items.

and 'inspired' doesn't really mean anything, what matters is simply how it plays, saying its inspired by some game doesn't mean much when its fundamentally doing the same mechanics from a well loved game from 20 years ago.

it's not the first turn based game to give the player more options, it wont be the last either.

still feels like sekiro to me so what can i tell you lol? people thinks that because it plays like that to them. simple as that.

whatever makes you feel better my dude, your woefully missing the point i made with a response like that, thats for sure.

[Jonas™]

Originally posted by zero:

i have no idea why people think reaction based timing defensive mechanics are "souls-like" in any manner, this isn't an ARPG

this is paper mario, and like in paper mario you get a bunch of different timed defensive tools, with block being far more liberal then the super-parry.

I don't have a problem with the concept, It's fine, I have a problem with the implementation. I played Mario RPG back in the day, that was actually one of the big selling points of E33 for me personally. I have also played souls-like RPGs/action games (not a ton, they aren't my thing really). In those cases the attack timing had unified rules as to how they behave so that you can learn and anticipate the windows. IMO, there is no unified rules in E33, every enemy has wildly different attack animations and timings.

I'll say again, out of any games I have ever played with this type of mechanic, E33 feels the worst, and it's not even close. And since the entire combat system is designed around it, I found the combat to be an unrewarding slog. After 13h it was no longer "this new boss will be fun", it was just "I wonder how many times I'm going to have to repeat this to get the dodge timings to avoid getting smashed every turn", which led to me actively avoiding every single optional boss.

As an aside, I actually have no issue with the attack QTEs, beyond them obscuring the visuals, I can nail them 99% without issue.

Originally posted by Griever:

Maybe playing on story mode/easy would be ideal for you?

The difficulty is coming entirely from the parry mechanic, turning it to Story difficulty just trivialized the combat so much it might as well auto-resolve.