Its no coincidence the fan favorite is Kat

[RoguelikeMike]

The only conventionally 'cute' girl is everyones favorite. Scroll through any social media. Its Kat. Kat Kat Kat, everywhere.

Not everyone that is against woke/dei/esg game design is against gay or black characters. Many people here are acting like some people opposing the token characters in this game is because of bigotry, but some people were indeed fans of LiS which had gay and black characters.

I argue that people care about story and see token character design as political lecturing. Which, it is.

You make a story around characters, you don't design characters to insert real life drama into a story, otherwise you get opposition, and honestly its deserved. Gay, black, female, whatever trait you want to categorize people into, they deserve better than tokenism and to be political tools.

Just write fantastic stories and characters, and people won't say a thing about their looks. Not a soul complains about Max or Chloe from LiS for being gay. Not one. What DO people complain about? The ending. That's what you as a developer want. People to talk about your game, not your political opinions. Many people here are claiming Dontnod games have always been woke. LiS1 was absolutely not woke. Woke doesn't mean just having gay, black or female characters. Not at all.

The majority of people (and no not just straight men) will always adore cute and beautiful characters. Beauty has been a staple in art since all of human history. Its only recently that activists have tried to abandon it and embrace ugliness instead. Sure, it might say something ugly about human nature, but we all ENJOY beauty (and no not necessarily sexually). Kat is an adorable character, as was Max, and Kate, and even Chloe in her own ways. People pay for entertainment and they want the best for their money. They don't want to play as ordinary looking people, and I'm tired of people trying to say thats some form of hatred or bigotry. This is supposed to be entertainment, and people pay for it. You don't have to like what they say, but you are wrong to act like they're all hateful evil people.

Yes, there are people that don't care about this, and people who even oppose 'pretty' characters, but you will never be in the majority. If Dontnod wants to succeed and hit the success they had with LiS1, they need to stop focusing on token characters and woke game design. They call it compassion and empathy and diversity, but its all just political brainwashing. You have zero responsibility to represent anyone, nor can you ever make everyone happy. Its so important to not have this kind of mindset because it seriously hampers game design. "Oh we can't do that, it mind offend this group, or we can't have a character that looks this way, we need to be compassionate towards real people". ITS FICTION. AS IN NOT REAL. Make whatever you want, without any kind of political ideology behind it, and anyone who opposes this freedom is your real enemy.

Basically, my entire argument is that humanity as a whole mostly opposes mediocrity and the mundane. This is pretty much an axiom, and the adoration by the masses for Kat is pretty much one form of proof. Most people do not want to expend their efforts making mundane things, so if they do, they cannot realistically have as much passion for their work as they would naturally. Its really difficult to labor over something for months and years knowing you're deliberately sabotaging it on purpose, and have any kind of real passion for what you're doing.

This is what gamers fear from woke game design. Apathetic game design, and, its honestly a very real problem because look, 95% of people enjoy beauty. That's just how it is.

If you want the sales you deserve, and the success you deserve, you need to not alienate the majority of your customers, which are 'normal' people.

LiS1 was so great because everyone could play it without feeling that way. When people look at games like this, they instantly feel a sense of disdain from the developers, unless they fit the token molds. That's not what you want when your goal is to sell a product. That's just sabotaging yourself.

[𝕃𝕀𝕃𝕐]

RoguelikeMike lähetti viestin:

The only conventionally 'cute' girl is everyones favorite. Scroll through any social media. Its Kat. Kat Kat Kat, everywhere.

Not everyone that is against woke/dei/esg game design is against gay or black characters. Many people here are acting like some people opposing the token characters in this game is because of bigotry, but some people were indeed fans of LiS which had gay and black characters.

I argue that people care about story and see token character design as political lecturing. Which, it is.

You make a story around characters, you don't design characters to insert real life drama into a story, otherwise you get opposition, and honestly its deserved. Gay, black, female, whatever trait you want to categorize people into, they deserve better than tokenism and to be political tools.

Just write fantastic stories and characters, and people won't say a thing about their looks. Not a soul complains about Max or Chloe from LiS for being gay. Not one. What DO people complain about? The ending. That's what you as a developer want. People to talk about your game, not your political opinions. Many people here are claiming Dontnod games have always been woke. LiS1 was absolutely not woke. Woke doesn't mean just having gay, black or female characters. Not at all.

The majority of people (and no not just straight men) will always adore cute and beautiful characters. Beauty has been a staple in art since all of human history. Its only recently that activists have tried to abandon it and embrace ugliness instead. Sure, it might say something ugly about human nature, but we all ENJOY beauty (and no not necessarily sexually). Kat is an adorable character, as was Max, and Kate, and even Chloe in her own ways. People pay for entertainment and they want the best for their money. They don't want to play as ordinary looking people, and I'm tired of people trying to say thats some form of hatred or bigotry. This is supposed to be entertainment, and people pay for it. You don't have to like what they say, but you are wrong to act like they're all hateful evil people.

Yes, there are people that don't care about this, and people who even oppose 'pretty' characters, but you will never be in the majority. If Dontnod wants to succeed and hit the success they had with LiS1, they need to stop focusing on token characters and woke game design. They call it compassion and empathy and diversity, but its all just political brainwashing. You have zero responsibility to represent anyone, nor can you ever make everyone happy. Its so important to not have this kind of mindset because it seriously hampers game design. "Oh we can't do that, it mind offend this group, or we can't have a character that looks this way, we need to be compassionate towards real people". ITS FICTION. AS IN NOT REAL. Make whatever you want, without any kind of political ideology behind it, and anyone who opposes this freedom is your real enemy.

Basically, my entire argument is that humanity as a whole mostly opposes mediocrity and the mundane. This is pretty much an axiom, and the adoration by the masses for Kat is pretty much one form of proof. Most people do not want to expend their efforts making mundane things, so if they do, they cannot realistically have as much passion for their work as they would naturally. Its really difficult to labor over something for months and years knowing you're deliberately sabotaging it on purpose, and have any kind of real passion for what you're doing.

This is what gamers fear from woke game design. Apathetic game design, and, its honestly a very real problem because look, 95% of people enjoy beauty. That's just how it is.

If you want the sales you deserve, and the success you deserve, you need to not alienate the majority of your customers, which are 'normal' people.

LiS1 was so great because everyone could play it without feeling that way. When people look at games like this, they instantly feel a sense of disdain from the developers, unless they fit the token molds. That's not what you want when your goal is to sell a product. That's just sabotaging yourself.

I disagree, I like Kat because she is less social and sort of insecure, just like me. But i like all of the girls for different qualities. I like how crazy Nora is, Autumn is definitely like some of my friends, and Swann is actually very pretty and I wish I had friend like her - very kind person

[𝕃𝕀𝕃𝕐]

Ka'a lähetti viestin:

Kat is a fan favorite because she's the real punk of the band and people that loved chloe will like her and nora more.

and its like the vast majority of the people that play lost records.

Nah, I love Kat, but I couldn't really stand Chloe, i sacrificed her lol, but I would never do that to Kat

[Just An Average Antagonist]

Oh, I may be simple, but I liked kat the best because when Swann first meeta them all, and Corey and Dylan are picking on Swann, Nora and Autumn are just watching, not lifting a finger to the bullying going on. Then in runs Kat, backing Swann up, a total stranger, and then, and only then, do Nora and Autumn decide to walk over.
Kat right from the start made a good impression and so, became my favourite.

[:3]

I do agree that some of Kat's popularity comes from from her conventionally attractive looks, but her personality is just... meh. Nothing stands out. Nora & Autumn on the other hand, are their own characters with unique personalities.

As some people mention above too, Kat is the awkward quiet girl, which a lot of people (gamers) relate too. Can't blame them

[s_teamboatwillie]

YanH lähetti viestin:

Budoshi lähetti viestin:

i think thats bugged because in my play thought i did everything to be favourite by kate and it was saying in the end ,were cool.

did u let her sleep at yr place? It came out of nowhere by keys scene and I was like, wait what, after we shared barely one word so far? And before I could think about it and reply, my reaction was that slow, that the option disappeared.

I'm gonna have to replay the game anyway, but I never had that conversation.

[s_teamboatwillie]

:3 lähetti viestin:

I do agree that some of Kat's popularity comes from from her conventionally attractive looks, but her personality is just... meh. Nothing stands out. Nora & Autumn on the other hand, are their own characters with unique personalities.

As some people mention above too, Kat is the awkward quiet girl, which a lot of people (gamers) relate too. Can't blame them

she isn't even socially awkward, she instantly became a natural part of the group with no effort. Meanwhile, with Swann, it always feels like these are the very first people she ever spoke to in her life - and heck, even middle-aged Swann is still that way. And on top of that, Swann is by far the least mature of them all

the key difference is that Kat has confidence and has no issue interacting with people, while Swann is seemingly in a near constant state of extreme anxiety. Kat is the brooding mysterious type, which is a very popular character archtype anyway. She very obviously is traumatized and shows alarming psychological behaviour, and the other girls seem almost completely oblivious about it. I found it very frustrating that you the player can't ever address it

over the course of the game, we learn that Swann, Nora and Autumn are pretty much open books with no real secrets to hide. Well, except for maybe adult Nora, we'll have to see about that. That leaves just Kat with any more depth to explore. A bit of a fault of the writers that they gave Kat pretty much most of their attention

[Budoshi]

YanH lähetti viestin:

Budoshi lähetti viestin:

i think thats bugged because in my play thought i did everything to be favourite by kate and it was saying in the end ,were cool.

did u let her sleep at yr place? It came out of nowhere by keys scene and I was like, wait what, after we shared barely one word so far? And before I could think about it and reply, my reaction was that slow, that the option disappeared.

no i choose something else, also when you call her YOU have to ask her for the secret if you told her if its a secret well don't tell me , she will hates that, and i guess i failed at these two options so it was ruined by the end because of these simple two options , It s a bit dumb i think.

[Fisconita]

RoguelikeMike lähetti viestin:

VaniKa lähetti viestin:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3432283921
I think this tells a different story. Nora is the clear winner, while Kat seems to be polarizing. More people like her more than Autumn, that's true, but also more people dislike her. I'm also not sure if you can simply reduce that to their looks. Most people will form their preference because of how the characters behave. Kat acts tough. Some like her attitude. But some might also dislike that same attitude and find it too blunt.

All in all your argument is in bad faith. In essence it's just the typical "go woke, go broke" narrative, that you're trying to push and you just use some "trust me bro" arguments to support that.

PS: I have calculated a rating based on the global choices. "Something more" is multiplied by three, "BFFs" is multiplied by two, "new friend" by one (neutral) and "we're cool" by zero as it's the most negative outcome. This way 300 points total are possible, if 100 % of the players got "something more". A perfectly balanced outcome (25 % in each category) would yield a final score of 150/300 or 50/100, which means a score above 50 makes a character liked above average, while a score below makes them liked below average.

Nora: 167/300 = 56/100
Kat: 121/300 = 40/100
Autumn: 110/300 = 37/100

This shows how Nora wins the "relationship contest", while Kat and Autumn are actually pretty close to one another. Nora is liked above average, while Kat and Autumn are liked below average.

Dontnod stats are pretty meaningless. They can be based on innumerable factors, none of which may have anything to do with actual preference. Just like in Life is Strange games, people may make choices based on things like following a guide, or accident, or to try for a specific game outcome. I mostly based my argument around what I said: what real people are actually saying and doing in social media. You don't see people upvoting posts about any of the other characters really, but if you go to the lostrecords subreddit for example, you will see dozens of posts with hundreds of upvotes claiming Kat is their favorite.

IMO, your argument is in bad faith. I never said "trust me bro" I said look at the social media.

As for go woke go broke, I mean the sales are proof enough of that. Compare the store page for this game and LiS1, the ONLY dontnod game that wasn't catering to the 5-7%.

LiS made their audience... everyone, while telling compelling stories about diverse people. We had Alyssa as the Swann, we had Hayden or Principal Wells as the black person, and we had two lesbian protagonists. The 'wokeist' moments in the game were when Chloe blurts out "you know I believe in gun control right?" and when Max says "climate change", two tiny immersion breaking moments, but nothing like having a full cast of obviously check-box designed characters front and center that you look at the entire time while playing.

None of this is bad faith argumentation, and it is all backed up by this games low sales and player count.

Please try to understand, I am not your enemy, I want Dontnod games to succeed, I just want them to go back to the LiS format where they told stories for everyone, so they can enjoy financial success and make more great games.

compare original deus ex game sales and player base and please, tell me deus ex is a good game and this is not. because on launch and in all time record stated on steam db lists, deus ex should be a s h i t acording to you all guys explanations. Twilight was a huge success selling a lot, but at the end of the day Werther from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe that sold a lot less is a better book with a more captivating story, better character build and focusing on a theme that actually was a problem when it launched.

[RoguelikeMike]

Fisconita lähetti viestin:

RoguelikeMike lähetti viestin:

Dontnod stats are pretty meaningless. They can be based on innumerable factors, none of which may have anything to do with actual preference. Just like in Life is Strange games, people may make choices based on things like following a guide, or accident, or to try for a specific game outcome. I mostly based my argument around what I said: what real people are actually saying and doing in social media. You don't see people upvoting posts about any of the other characters really, but if you go to the lostrecords subreddit for example, you will see dozens of posts with hundreds of upvotes claiming Kat is their favorite.

IMO, your argument is in bad faith. I never said "trust me bro" I said look at the social media.

As for go woke go broke, I mean the sales are proof enough of that. Compare the store page for this game and LiS1, the ONLY dontnod game that wasn't catering to the 5-7%.

LiS made their audience... everyone, while telling compelling stories about diverse people. We had Alyssa as the Swann, we had Hayden or Principal Wells as the black person, and we had two lesbian protagonists. The 'wokeist' moments in the game were when Chloe blurts out "you know I believe in gun control right?" and when Max says "climate change", two tiny immersion breaking moments, but nothing like having a full cast of obviously check-box designed characters front and center that you look at the entire time while playing.

None of this is bad faith argumentation, and it is all backed up by this games low sales and player count.

Please try to understand, I am not your enemy, I want Dontnod games to succeed, I just want them to go back to the LiS format where they told stories for everyone, so they can enjoy financial success and make more great games.

compare original deus ex game sales and player base and please, tell me deus ex is a good game and this is not. because on launch and in all time record stated on steam db lists, deus ex should be a s h i t acording to you all guys explanations. Twilight was a huge success selling a lot, but at the end of the day Werther from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe that sold a lot less is a better book with a more captivating story, better character build and focusing on a theme that actually was a problem when it launched.

Sometimes garbage sells. People like popcorn/junkfood entertainment too.

Sometimes really great things slip under the radar and go unappreciated.

None of this is relevant and is as I was blamed for using, "bad faith argumentation".

One thing is for sure, if a game is woke its never going to sell. This is now an industry rule.

No amount of crying or complaining will change it either. The numbers speak for themselves.

2-7% of people are lgbt globally, I think it was. Please don't "well ackshully" me on this by 1-3% anyone, it really doesn't help your argument any. This is what's known as a minority. We live in an age of gaming where you can't expect big sales appealing to 2-7% of people. That's just a really terrible business strategy. What you CAN do, and is SMART to do... is what LiS 1 did, and appeal to 100% of people. But no, woke devs would rather show disdain for 97-93% of people, and hey, good for them, but they won't be working in this industry much longer, not with any kind of success anymore.

[YanH]

s_teamboatwillie lähetti viestin:

She very obviously is traumatized and shows alarming psychological behaviour, and the other girls seem almost completely oblivious about it.

In that age, you don't really care, ure just njoying time with your coming out of age friends, not probing other's burdens (you have your own that you keep for yourself) and living at the very moment. It comes with age