Its no coincidence the fan favorite is Kat

[RoguelikeMike]

The only conventionally 'cute' girl is everyones favorite. Scroll through any social media. Its Kat. Kat Kat Kat, everywhere.

Not everyone that is against woke/dei/esg game design is against gay or black characters. Many people here are acting like some people opposing the token characters in this game is because of bigotry, but some people were indeed fans of LiS which had gay and black characters.

I argue that people care about story and see token character design as political lecturing. Which, it is.

You make a story around characters, you don't design characters to insert real life drama into a story, otherwise you get opposition, and honestly its deserved. Gay, black, female, whatever trait you want to categorize people into, they deserve better than tokenism and to be political tools.

Just write fantastic stories and characters, and people won't say a thing about their looks. Not a soul complains about Max or Chloe from LiS for being gay. Not one. What DO people complain about? The ending. That's what you as a developer want. People to talk about your game, not your political opinions. Many people here are claiming Dontnod games have always been woke. LiS1 was absolutely not woke. Woke doesn't mean just having gay, black or female characters. Not at all.

The majority of people (and no not just straight men) will always adore cute and beautiful characters. Beauty has been a staple in art since all of human history. Its only recently that activists have tried to abandon it and embrace ugliness instead. Sure, it might say something ugly about human nature, but we all ENJOY beauty (and no not necessarily sexually). Kat is an adorable character, as was Max, and Kate, and even Chloe in her own ways. People pay for entertainment and they want the best for their money. They don't want to play as ordinary looking people, and I'm tired of people trying to say thats some form of hatred or bigotry. This is supposed to be entertainment, and people pay for it. You don't have to like what they say, but you are wrong to act like they're all hateful evil people.

Yes, there are people that don't care about this, and people who even oppose 'pretty' characters, but you will never be in the majority. If Dontnod wants to succeed and hit the success they had with LiS1, they need to stop focusing on token characters and woke game design. They call it compassion and empathy and diversity, but its all just political brainwashing. You have zero responsibility to represent anyone, nor can you ever make everyone happy. Its so important to not have this kind of mindset because it seriously hampers game design. "Oh we can't do that, it mind offend this group, or we can't have a character that looks this way, we need to be compassionate towards real people". ITS FICTION. AS IN NOT REAL. Make whatever you want, without any kind of political ideology behind it, and anyone who opposes this freedom is your real enemy.

Basically, my entire argument is that humanity as a whole mostly opposes mediocrity and the mundane. This is pretty much an axiom, and the adoration by the masses for Kat is pretty much one form of proof. Most people do not want to expend their efforts making mundane things, so if they do, they cannot realistically have as much passion for their work as they would naturally. Its really difficult to labor over something for months and years knowing you're deliberately sabotaging it on purpose, and have any kind of real passion for what you're doing.

This is what gamers fear from woke game design. Apathetic game design, and, its honestly a very real problem because look, 95% of people enjoy beauty. That's just how it is.

If you want the sales you deserve, and the success you deserve, you need to not alienate the majority of your customers, which are 'normal' people.

LiS1 was so great because everyone could play it without feeling that way. When people look at games like this, they instantly feel a sense of disdain from the developers, unless they fit the token molds. That's not what you want when your goal is to sell a product. That's just sabotaging yourself.

[YanH]

Publicado originalmente por ViccyQ:

Making character purposely ugly if story does not need it, is same like purposely making character straight from Baywatch. (does not apply to Swann, though for my taste she's nearly obese not chubby and at that age it's parents fault)

To speak only for myself as I like the game and I'm not one of those, who sit here for days to call the game woke, only I ask for in games are average Joes (and we have plenty of those, in fact all), and standard Susans or regular Beccas of random colors.

For example I played Hogwarts legacy briefly, there is plenty of very random NPCs, I don't need any extremes like Final fantasy or the opposite of it. LIS1 characters, whole arcadia bay and Blackwell were avg NPCs even the chubby girl. Sue, Brick or Mike Heck from The middle aren't the prettiest ppl on the world, they are just average and fit that way, if they are too pretty or too ugly, show wouldn't have numbers.

[Im Yoona]

I'm with OP. My favorite is Kat by a wide margin. Hell, it's hard to call her my favorite if the design of the others are so unappealing that it makes it hard to like them, since in 4 hours of game, the have shown little to no personality to begin with.

Honestly, my bet is that if we had amazing writing, interactions and interesting plot right out of the gate the characters appearance would be a smaller topic; but every second Swann speaks like a baby, or nothing happens at all the thing one person already doesn't like come to light.

I think regardless of our different views on stuff here, we all liked Don't Nod games in the past. Think of Life is Strange 1. We don't need 30 minutes to like Max, and we are at the very least curious about: the mean girl, the playboy kid who kills another person, the one being bullied, the professor, the director, max's friend, the security guy.
So many character can grab your attention in such a small amount of time and they keep getting more interesting, and Chloe, a fan favorite of many, has not even actually appeared yet.

My point is that this game so far is a huge step down on everything but graphics.

[VaniKa]

Imagine DONTNOD sitting in their conference room and someone says: “Sorry, we can’t make her like that because the players don’t like that.” And imagine there’s a person just like that sitting in the room, hearing that. This is what you do. Imagine that there are people here who are what you apparently don’t like, who are “not normal” and “unappealing”. You talk about what “the players” want, without ever realising all sorts of people are playing games. You know, it meant the world for black girls to finally have black dolls. Before they only had white dolls, for exactly the same reasons. Because a white-dominated culture found that more appealing or relatable. What also clearly shines through is that different skin colours, body types or being part of LGBTQ+ is seen as lesser than, as a flaw. “She has acne, why show that in a game? Who wants to see that?” That is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥ from you because you make people feel bad around you. You shame them. And you should stop with that. If “woke” games are bringing that out in you, it’s showing you a mirror and you are the best proof why games have to be “woke”.

[s_teamboatwillie]

they're all meant to be 16, and she looks like 11-12. It's super weird, really

[VaniKa]

Publicado originalmente por s_teamboatwillie:

they're all meant to be 16, and she looks like 11-12. It's super weird, really

She has leukemia, a serious illness, that can strain the body so much it develops slower. Plus, people can generally be late bloomers. So, depicting Kat like she is, is also part of diversity. I really don't get why people have issues with these things. You should really try harder understanding other people instead of judging them and interpreting everything out of the ordinary in a bad way. It oozes normativity.

[s_teamboatwillie]

Publicado originalmente por VaniKa:

Publicado originalmente por s_teamboatwillie:

they're all meant to be 16, and she looks like 11-12. It's super weird, really

She has leukemia, a serious illness, that can strain the body so much it develops slower. Plus, people can generally be late bloomers. So, depicting Kat like she is, is also part of diversity. I really don't get why people have issues with these things. You should really try harder understanding other people instead of judging them and interpreting everything out of the ordinary in a bad way. It oozes normativity.

they made her look especially young, because she's the central character (not Swann. No one cares about Swann). The player is supposed to feel attached to her, thus, the little sister, vulnerable type of vibe. They very much overdid it with her. I half expect that she wasn't originally meant to be 16

normativity is an absurd term to use here

[ViccyQ]

Publicado originalmente por s_teamboatwillie:

they're all meant to be 16, and she looks like 11-12. It's super weird, really

Publicado originalmente por s_teamboatwillie:

Publicado originalmente por VaniKa:

She has leukemia, a serious illness, that can strain the body so much it develops slower. Plus, people can generally be late bloomers. So, depicting Kat like she is, is also part of diversity. I really don't get why people have issues with these things. You should really try harder understanding other people instead of judging them and interpreting everything out of the ordinary in a bad way. It oozes normativity.

they made her look especially young, because she's the central character (not Swann. No one cares about Swann). The player is supposed to feel attached to her, thus, the little sister, vulnerable type of vibe. They very much overdid it with her. I half expect that she wasn't originally meant to be 16

normativity is an absurd term to use here

Correction...YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT SWANN lol!

Not sure if you were alive in the 90's but it was super common for people of that generation, 80's to 90's be older than what they appeared.

There was a lot of people who looked like grown adults but actually young.

I bet Corey is like 20 but looks like he's about to enter his 30's.

Huge amount of biases flying off your finger tips.

[RoguelikeMike]

Publicado originalmente por Bishi:

Those tertiary characters hardly count as equal representation. (I had to google Hayden, completely forgot he existed). I guess I can somewhat understand the frustration, but a game for everyone that really only includes a white main cast is pretty sad. I would say at that point is when you have true token representation. Like the old 90s shows where the one black friend never gets a date and the gay friend gets a single pity episode so the main character can virtue signal to the audience. ♥♥♥♥, maybe they should have done that with this game. Hella nostalgic that.

Anyways though, I still prefer the actual data provided by the devs. I can't be arsed to verify your claims about social media as they tend to reinforce echo chambers by default.

I really have no opinion on the the acne thing. While garish, most teenagers deal with this in lesser or even greater degrees. I don't think they are trying to glorify pimples and washing your face with bacon grease.

Personally, I'm just lost on why Autumn is considered a bad character. I guess I need to hurry up and catch up to the rest of you all. Also everyone has a bias, the mother of my child is black so this irks me more than usual. And by bias I'm talking about your immediate character preferences.

There's nothing sad about a white main cast. Your statement there is racist. There'd be nothing sad about a black main cast or like in LiS1, two gay main characters. Lost Records could be a game about literally anything, but when you lump a bunch of random typical DEI checkbox things all together it breaks immersion, ruins the game. Because its bad writing. Its too unrealistic. Imagine if you said this about any other race... its honestly just offensive.

I really like Alyssa, she's a cool character and a decent person. But as a main character? Yeah, I don't identify with them as much as I do Max. Main characters need to be role models, anti-heroes, or villains. They can't be ordinary, otherwise the majority of people simply aren't entertained. That's just how this stuff works. There will always be the 5% that just don't care, but apathy isn't actually a virtue to be proud of imo.

"I still prefer the data presented by the devs" even though it literally cannot back up your argument as it doesn't apply, its messy random data where nobody can know the players intentions behind the choices, not to mention players can play a game multiple times on multiples systems and make different choices every time. The only datapoint that has any value is the one I presented... what real people are saying and doing, but by all means don't be bothered to even try to learn anything. It takes a great deal of effort to scroll through the lost records subreddit, click top rated of all time and browse for 30 seconds, after all. It sure would be a shame if I happened to be right about everything I said, huh? Good thing you can't be bothered.

As for bias, again, I don't have one. I haven't played the game yet, I know literally nothing about the characters. What I do know is what I've seen on social media, and what the main cast look like. This doesn't invalidate my points as I'm not arguing story beats or game quality, I'm talking about the "this game is woke!!" threads that have cropped up here and the toxic positivity echo chamber arguments that have attempted to silence them.

I want to reiterate what my main point was, that beauty and art go together. Beauty takes effort. When people pay for a product they want something that took effort to create. Anyone, and I mean anyone can make ugly art. Its not worth buying, and it never will be. The commonly parroted, frankly stupid argument that "not all characters need to be super models" (or as stated in this thread baywatch models) is just silly. None of the characters from LiS were 'pretty' in that way, and they don't need to be, but people do not want to play as a fat person or someone with acne scars. Not unless its a really good story or very fun gameplay, then people won't care as much. But if your game is all about what the characters look and sound like? You're dooming yourself to poor sales on purpose.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't have these traits on characters in a game. It just needs to be done intelligently. It needs good writing, it needs to feel real and organic. The MC can be any race or sexuality, just do it with a tact and people will enjoy the game and the story, but make it loud and obnoxious and way too obvious and it shatters immersion.

Make believable worlds not tainted with real world drama and everyone will be happy. Nobody wants to buy a game, boot it up and feel disdain and outright hated right away. And again, you don't need to have an "only white" main cast to avoid this. The entire problem is caring about representation in the first place, and caring about races and sexualities in the first place. If you focus on that, you've already stumbled. Its my personal opinion that the developers of this game, and anyone that introduces woke ideology in their entertainment are racists, they are bigots, they are sexists, they are homophobes, because thats what they see people as, categories of these things. How can that be described as anything other than a negative thing?

[Ka'a]

Kat is a fan favorite because she's the real punk of the band and people that loved chloe will like her and nora more.

and its like the vast majority of the people that play lost records.

[(ADORA)ble 🌈👊]

Publicado originalmente por RoguelikeMike:

The only conventionally 'cute' girl is everyones favorite. Scroll through any social media. Its Kat. Kat Kat Kat, everywhere.

Not everyone that is against woke/dei/esg game design is against gay or black characters. Many people here are acting like some people opposing the token characters in this game is because of bigotry, but some people were indeed fans of LiS which had gay and black characters.

I argue that people care about story and see token character design as political lecturing. Which, it is.

You make a story around characters, you don't design characters to insert real life drama into a story, otherwise you get opposition, and honestly its deserved. Gay, black, female, whatever trait you want to categorize people into, they deserve better than tokenism and to be political tools.

Just write fantastic stories and characters, and people won't say a thing about their looks. Not a soul complains about Max or Chloe from LiS for being gay. Not one. What DO people complain about? The ending. That's what you as a developer want. People to talk about your game, not your political opinions. Many people here are claiming Dontnod games have always been woke. LiS1 was absolutely not woke. Woke doesn't mean just having gay, black or female characters. Not at all.

The majority of people (and no not just straight men) will always adore cute and beautiful characters. Beauty has been a staple in art since all of human history. Its only recently that activists have tried to abandon it and embrace ugliness instead. Sure, it might say something ugly about human nature, but we all ENJOY beauty (and no not necessarily sexually). Kat is an adorable character, as was Max, and Kate, and even Chloe in her own ways. People pay for entertainment and they want the best for their money. They don't want to play as ordinary looking people, and I'm tired of people trying to say thats some form of hatred or bigotry. This is supposed to be entertainment, and people pay for it. You don't have to like what they say, but you are wrong to act like they're all hateful evil people.

Yes, there are people that don't care about this, and people who even oppose 'pretty' characters, but you will never be in the majority. If Dontnod wants to succeed and hit the success they had with LiS1, they need to stop focusing on token characters and woke game design. They call it compassion and empathy and diversity, but its all just political brainwashing. You have zero responsibility to represent anyone, nor can you ever make everyone happy. Its so important to not have this kind of mindset because it seriously hampers game design. "Oh we can't do that, it mind offend this group, or we can't have a character that looks this way, we need to be compassionate towards real people". ITS FICTION. AS IN NOT REAL. Make whatever you want, without any kind of political ideology behind it, and anyone who opposes this freedom is your real enemy.

Basically, my entire argument is that humanity as a whole mostly opposes mediocrity and the mundane. This is pretty much an axiom, and the adoration by the masses for Kat is pretty much one form of proof. Most people do not want to expend their efforts making mundane things, so if they do, they cannot realistically have as much passion for their work as they would naturally. Its really difficult to labor over something for months and years knowing you're deliberately sabotaging it on purpose, and have any kind of real passion for what you're doing.

This is what gamers fear from woke game design. Apathetic game design, and, its honestly a very real problem because look, 95% of people enjoy beauty. That's just how it is.

If you want the sales you deserve, and the success you deserve, you need to not alienate the majority of your customers, which are 'normal' people.

LiS1 was so great because everyone could play it without feeling that way. When people look at games like this, they instantly feel a sense of disdain from the developers, unless they fit the token molds. That's not what you want when your goal is to sell a product. That's just sabotaging yourself.

You're a disgusting bigot. Stay away from queer people.

[Der_Sauresgeber]

Publicado originalmente por RoguelikeMike:

Publicado originalmente por VaniKa:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3432283921
I think this tells a different story. Nora is the clear winner, while Kat seems to be polarizing. More people like her more than Autumn, that's true, but also more people dislike her. I'm also not sure if you can simply reduce that to their looks. Most people will form their preference because of how the characters behave. Kat acts tough. Some like her attitude. But some might also dislike that same attitude and find it too blunt.

All in all your argument is in bad faith. In essence it's just the typical "go woke, go broke" narrative, that you're trying to push and you just use some "trust me bro" arguments to support that.

PS: I have calculated a rating based on the global choices. "Something more" is multiplied by three, "BFFs" is multiplied by two, "new friend" by one (neutral) and "we're cool" by zero as it's the most negative outcome. This way 300 points total are possible, if 100 % of the players got "something more". A perfectly balanced outcome (25 % in each category) would yield a final score of 150/300 or 50/100, which means a score above 50 makes a character liked above average, while a score below makes them liked below average.

Nora: 167/300 = 56/100
Kat: 121/300 = 40/100
Autumn: 110/300 = 37/100

This shows how Nora wins the "relationship contest", while Kat and Autumn are actually pretty close to one another. Nora is liked above average, while Kat and Autumn are liked below average.

Dontnod stats are pretty meaningless. They can be based on innumerable factors, none of which may have anything to do with actual preference. Just like in Life is Strange games, people may make choices based on things like following a guide, or accident, or to try for a specific game outcome. I mostly based my argument around what I said: what real people are actually saying and doing in social media. You don't see people upvoting posts about any of the other characters really, but if you go to the lostrecords subreddit for example, you will see dozens of posts with hundreds of upvotes claiming Kat is their favorite.

IMO, your argument is in bad faith. I never said "trust me bro" I said look at the social media.

As for go woke go broke, I mean the sales are proof enough of that. Compare the store page for this game and LiS1, the ONLY dontnod game that wasn't catering to the 5-7%.

LiS made their audience... everyone, while telling compelling stories about diverse people. We had Alyssa as the Swann, we had Hayden or Principal Wells as the black person, and we had two lesbian protagonists. The 'wokeist' moments in the game were when Chloe blurts out "you know I believe in gun control right?" and when Max says "climate change", two tiny immersion breaking moments, but nothing like having a full cast of obviously check-box designed characters front and center that you look at the entire time while playing.

None of this is bad faith argumentation, and it is all backed up by this games low sales and player count.

Please try to understand, I am not your enemy, I want Dontnod games to succeed, I just want them to go back to the LiS format where they told stories for everyone, so they can enjoy financial success and make more great games.

DONTNOD stats are actually not meaningless, they are the only thing that should matter in a discussion like this. They represent the outcomes of actual players. Whether or not they used a guide is completely irrelevant because they still used a guide to get these outcomes because they WANTED these outcomes.

You're trying to argue against the actual statistics with what is generally called "anecdotal evidence".

[Bishi]

Publicado originalmente por RoguelikeMike:

...

Sure misconstrue everything I say to build your own narrative. You are basing your entire argument on subjective opinions without even playing the game yourself. Art can be beautiful, but at the end of the day it doesn't have to be if the artist is trying to convey something deeper than surface level aesthetics or even an abstract thought. I'm not defending the "uglies" or whatever. Just the artistic vision of the team and how it logically makes sense with the story. Capiche?

Also, if my statement that white casts are sad offended you. I apologize. Given I already provided context for that statement. I will reiterate my point for you; back in the day, it was quite common for shows like Boy Meets World and One Tree Hill to have some minority characters, but they never really did anything with them. Imo, true tokenism akin to "hey, we might not being do a lot with this character, but we aren't racist!". The stories were all mainly centered on the white main cast.

[Tonykov]

I prefer Nora.

[Budoshi]

i think thats bugged because in my play thought i did everything to be favourite by kate and it was saying in the end ,were cool.

[YanH]

Publicado originalmente por Budoshi:

i think thats bugged because in my play thought i did everything to be favourite by kate and it was saying in the end ,were cool.

did u let her sleep at yr place? It came out of nowhere by keys scene and I was like, wait what, after we shared barely one word so far? And before I could think about it and reply, my reaction was that slow, that the option disappeared.