Its no coincidence the fan favorite is Kat

[RoguelikeMike]

The only conventionally 'cute' girl is everyones favorite. Scroll through any social media. Its Kat. Kat Kat Kat, everywhere.

Not everyone that is against woke/dei/esg game design is against gay or black characters. Many people here are acting like some people opposing the token characters in this game is because of bigotry, but some people were indeed fans of LiS which had gay and black characters.

I argue that people care about story and see token character design as political lecturing. Which, it is.

You make a story around characters, you don't design characters to insert real life drama into a story, otherwise you get opposition, and honestly its deserved. Gay, black, female, whatever trait you want to categorize people into, they deserve better than tokenism and to be political tools.

Just write fantastic stories and characters, and people won't say a thing about their looks. Not a soul complains about Max or Chloe from LiS for being gay. Not one. What DO people complain about? The ending. That's what you as a developer want. People to talk about your game, not your political opinions. Many people here are claiming Dontnod games have always been woke. LiS1 was absolutely not woke. Woke doesn't mean just having gay, black or female characters. Not at all.

The majority of people (and no not just straight men) will always adore cute and beautiful characters. Beauty has been a staple in art since all of human history. Its only recently that activists have tried to abandon it and embrace ugliness instead. Sure, it might say something ugly about human nature, but we all ENJOY beauty (and no not necessarily sexually). Kat is an adorable character, as was Max, and Kate, and even Chloe in her own ways. People pay for entertainment and they want the best for their money. They don't want to play as ordinary looking people, and I'm tired of people trying to say thats some form of hatred or bigotry. This is supposed to be entertainment, and people pay for it. You don't have to like what they say, but you are wrong to act like they're all hateful evil people.

Yes, there are people that don't care about this, and people who even oppose 'pretty' characters, but you will never be in the majority. If Dontnod wants to succeed and hit the success they had with LiS1, they need to stop focusing on token characters and woke game design. They call it compassion and empathy and diversity, but its all just political brainwashing. You have zero responsibility to represent anyone, nor can you ever make everyone happy. Its so important to not have this kind of mindset because it seriously hampers game design. "Oh we can't do that, it mind offend this group, or we can't have a character that looks this way, we need to be compassionate towards real people". ITS FICTION. AS IN NOT REAL. Make whatever you want, without any kind of political ideology behind it, and anyone who opposes this freedom is your real enemy.

Basically, my entire argument is that humanity as a whole mostly opposes mediocrity and the mundane. This is pretty much an axiom, and the adoration by the masses for Kat is pretty much one form of proof. Most people do not want to expend their efforts making mundane things, so if they do, they cannot realistically have as much passion for their work as they would naturally. Its really difficult to labor over something for months and years knowing you're deliberately sabotaging it on purpose, and have any kind of real passion for what you're doing.

This is what gamers fear from woke game design. Apathetic game design, and, its honestly a very real problem because look, 95% of people enjoy beauty. That's just how it is.

If you want the sales you deserve, and the success you deserve, you need to not alienate the majority of your customers, which are 'normal' people.

LiS1 was so great because everyone could play it without feeling that way. When people look at games like this, they instantly feel a sense of disdain from the developers, unless they fit the token molds. That's not what you want when your goal is to sell a product. That's just sabotaging yourself.

[VaniKa]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3432283921
I think this tells a different story. Nora is the clear winner, while Kat seems to be polarizing. More people like her more than Autumn, that's true, but also more people dislike her. I'm also not sure if you can simply reduce that to their looks. Most people will form their preference because of how the characters behave. Kat acts tough. Some like her attitude. But some might also dislike that same attitude and find it too blunt.

All in all your argument is in bad faith. In essence it's just the typical "go woke, go broke" narrative, that you're trying to push and you just use some "trust me bro" arguments to support that.

PS: I have calculated a rating based on the global choices. "Something more" is multiplied by three, "BFFs" is multiplied by two, "new friend" by one (neutral) and "we're cool" by zero as it's the most negative outcome. This way 300 points total are possible, if 100 % of the players got "something more". A perfectly balanced outcome (25 % in each category) would yield a final score of 150/300 or 50/100, which means a score above 50 makes a character liked above average, while a score below makes them liked below average.

Nora: 167/300 = 56/100
Kat: 121/300 = 40/100
Autumn: 110/300 = 37/100

This shows how Nora wins the "relationship contest", while Kat and Autumn are actually pretty close to one another. Nora is liked above average, while Kat and Autumn are liked below average.

[G4T0L4TE]

You are a master in the art of talking a lot and saying nothing, is this supposed to be an in-depth analysis or something?

[Stoibs]

Originally posted by VaniKa:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3432283921

Is there a way to revisist that stats screen? For whatever reason the PS5 version just had zero connectivity and I couldn't compare all my choices to the community

It's one of the things I really enjoy most after playing these type of games.

But yeah I believe Kat was my lowest on my end, Nora was highest and Autumn was floating around in the middle there. Kat just gave... psychopath vibes which meant that most of my dialogue options ended up being neutral or negative to her honestly :/

[VaniKa]

Originally posted by Stoibs:

Is there a way to revisist that stats screen?

In the main menu under "extras".

[Stoibs]

Originally posted by VaniKa:

Originally posted by Stoibs:

Is there a way to revisist that stats screen?

In the main menu under "extras".

Thanks, yeah PS5 connectivity is still broken :/

But yeah I got BFF for Nora, new friend on the others. Now I really want to see the community comparisons for my choices

[Bishi]

Glad someone brought some actual data to this thread. Kind of puts OP's bias front and center. I like all three so far, but I've only completed up to retrieving the key at the park so far. I will say this though, Autumn is actually quite cute and they dodged a bullet by not making her some thicc sassy Erkel type. A couple of throwbacks to the 90s/00s black character writing I can live without. Unfortunately, she has to compete against a very vibrant Nora and a seemingly plot relevant and headstrong Kat; while the elephant is still in the room.

I have to really question what is so "woke" about this cast. There is one girl with acne who grows out of it, a "normal" girl, and a black girl. Swawnn as an MC isn't that bad, she is a socially awkward girl with a reason to be adverse to people due to reactions about her body weight. Far less controversial compared to Tell Me Why. Maybe less people can relate to bullying than just being a new girl (Max), but it's far more relatable to a broader audience than* their last outing.

Edit:*

[RoguelikeMike]

Originally posted by VaniKa:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3432283921
I think this tells a different story. Nora is the clear winner, while Kat seems to be polarizing. More people like her more than Autumn, that's true, but also more people dislike her. I'm also not sure if you can simply reduce that to their looks. Most people will form their preference because of how the characters behave. Kat acts tough. Some like her attitude. But some might also dislike that same attitude and find it too blunt.

All in all your argument is in bad faith. In essence it's just the typical "go woke, go broke" narrative, that you're trying to push and you just use some "trust me bro" arguments to support that.

PS: I have calculated a rating based on the global choices. "Something more" is multiplied by three, "BFFs" is multiplied by two, "new friend" by one (neutral) and "we're cool" by zero as it's the most negative outcome. This way 300 points total are possible, if 100 % of the players got "something more". A perfectly balanced outcome (25 % in each category) would yield a final score of 150/300 or 50/100, which means a score above 50 makes a character liked above average, while a score below makes them liked below average.

Nora: 167/300 = 56/100
Kat: 121/300 = 40/100
Autumn: 110/300 = 37/100

This shows how Nora wins the "relationship contest", while Kat and Autumn are actually pretty close to one another. Nora is liked above average, while Kat and Autumn are liked below average.

Dontnod stats are pretty meaningless. They can be based on innumerable factors, none of which may have anything to do with actual preference. Just like in Life is Strange games, people may make choices based on things like following a guide, or accident, or to try for a specific game outcome. I mostly based my argument around what I said: what real people are actually saying and doing in social media. You don't see people upvoting posts about any of the other characters really, but if you go to the lostrecords subreddit for example, you will see dozens of posts with hundreds of upvotes claiming Kat is their favorite.

IMO, your argument is in bad faith. I never said "trust me bro" I said look at the social media.

As for go woke go broke, I mean the sales are proof enough of that. Compare the store page for this game and LiS1, the ONLY dontnod game that wasn't catering to the 5-7%.

LiS made their audience... everyone, while telling compelling stories about diverse people. We had Alyssa as the Swann, we had Hayden or Principal Wells as the black person, and we had two lesbian protagonists. The 'wokeist' moments in the game were when Chloe blurts out "you know I believe in gun control right?" and when Max says "climate change", two tiny immersion breaking moments, but nothing like having a full cast of obviously check-box designed characters front and center that you look at the entire time while playing.

None of this is bad faith argumentation, and it is all backed up by this games low sales and player count.

Please try to understand, I am not your enemy, I want Dontnod games to succeed, I just want them to go back to the LiS format where they told stories for everyone, so they can enjoy financial success and make more great games.

[RoguelikeMike]

Originally posted by Bishi:

Glad someone brought some actual data to this thread. Kind of puts OP's bias front and center. I like all three so far, but I've only completed up to retrieving the key at the park so far. I will say this though, Autumn is actually quite cute and they dodged a bullet by not making her some thicc sassy Erkel type. A couple of throwbacks to the 90s/00s black character writing I can live without. Unfortunately, she has to compete against a very vibrant Nora and a seemingly plot relevant and headstrong Kat; while the elephant is still in the room.

I have to really question what is so "woke" about this cast. There is one girl with acne who grows out of it, a "normal" girl, and a black girl. Swawnn as an MC isn't that bad, she is a socially awkward girl with a reason to be adverse to people due to reactions about her body weight. Far less controversial compared to Tell Me Why. Maybe less people can relate to bullying than just being a new girl (Max), but it's far more relatable to a broader audience than* their last outing.

Edit:*

I do not have a bias, I made it clear in the first sentences of my post where I got my data from, social media posts. You can go check out the lostrecords subreddit if you don't believe me. All you see there is Kat, thousands and thousands of upvotes for just her. The game stats are deceptive, Dontnod stats always are. You can't know what a player makes a gameplay choice around, but when they make a social media post saying "This is my favorite character I adore her!!!" its pretty obvious.

You know what is woke about the game. Its why there are so many people (albeit toxicly) complaining about DEI, making threads about it.

To my knowledge there has never been a single female character with acne scars, ever. In any other game. I've never seen it. The main cast all fit check-box DEI design principles. Individually, they would raise no alarms, but when they're all present together it makes it obvious that its political pandering.

I'm not here to ♥♥♥♥ on anyones parade, I want Dontnod to be successful and go on to make great games. Nobody can argue with LiS1's sales and success, and anyone who plays it will recognize how different it is from LiS2 and beyond. Dontnod has been floundering and flailing, and as much as people want to just keep the toxic positivity train rolling, the cost of that might just be their company going under. I don't want that to happen.

[Bishi]

Those tertiary characters hardly count as equal representation. (I had to google Hayden, completely forgot he existed). I guess I can somewhat understand the frustration, but a game for everyone that really only includes a white main cast is pretty sad. I would say at that point is when you have true token representation. Like the old 90s shows where the one black friend never gets a date and the gay friend gets a single pity episode so the main character can virtue signal to the audience. ♥♥♥♥, maybe they should have done that with this game. Hella nostalgic that.

Anyways though, I still prefer the actual data provided by the devs. I can't be arsed to verify your claims about social media as they tend to reinforce echo chambers by default.

I really have no opinion on the the acne thing. While garish, most teenagers deal with this in lesser or even greater degrees. I don't think they are trying to glorify pimples and washing your face with bacon grease.

Personally, I'm just lost on why Autumn is considered a bad character. I guess I need to hurry up and catch up to the rest of you all. Also everyone has a bias, the mother of my child is black so this irks me more than usual. And by bias I'm talking about your immediate character preferences.

[YanH]

TLDR thread lol..., Kat and Dylan are only avg next door girls that's why..., same as election, you vote for most acceptable person that is given. Autumn is cute, just not much for caucasians, and Nora...ppl are not usually into punka.ss girls even if they look way better than her. Pimples do not play any role here. (Kat could be guy to mix it, I spent my youth with girls too) More likeable characters would get them more sales, but it's dontnod's fight.

It's just teen game characters, but there has to be some chemistry between player, the more likeable and believable characters, player feels as part of the group. LIS1 did that well even for side NPCs, u easily felt as part of the academy. The game is nice and I liked it more than truecolors, but I did not feel that strong bond with characters, I felt more like a spectator.

Swann was good for a role but she should've been just natural chubbytot, maybe it's because I'm european but I never seen a girl nor a guy that big in that age. Not in 90s not even now in 2025. So for me it was distracting, same as in the movie Companion, Sophie Thatcher is cute, but I was distracted by front tooth crooked that much.

@Bishi well then why Swann isn't at least asian heheh, she would fit well into role... Biased as well, coz my fiance is cutie pinay :) Autumn was okay as child, but as adult, she's weird character and I sense something wrong from her behavior... we will see in April.

[Bishi]

@YahN I'm not even sure why I'm engaging with your reply. I guess because you are @ing me. *Sigh*

I did not ask for any race swapping, but you did point out your own default to the next best thing when mentioning Kat (and Dylan). Also... Swann is the MC. So, yeah, the ♥♥♥♥ you on about mate? I just finished the garage band scene, so I guess I'll see how she acts later on. It'll take me a few more days to finish Tape 1 most likely.

The game is set in America. And let me tell you something. Just getting my groceries I nearly bump into someone twice as wide as I am every 20 feet. But you are right, obesity has only been climbing since the 90s and people here on average were thinner back then. Does not rule out their existence however. Anyway, here is some data on the States you can peruse if you want. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/pdfs/mm6650a1-H.pdf

It's almost paradoxical how this country engages with the topic. I guess games like this are a good lesson to not be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about it.

[Blankenshipcasey91]

I have tried so many times to put those views into words and have either never been able too or was just flat out hated one. It kills immersion and just doesn’t feel genuine when you know that characters are made a certain way because of some real life opinion. People like beauty. Not just men women too I’ve heard my wife’s romance novels. I am certainly anti woke but that doesn’t mean no gay or black people or especially no women, it just means create a world and make characters that fit it and don’t purposely make them unattractive because it’s a game not real life. Most importantly. I want to escape in a game not be reminded all the time about how real life politics especially when I disagree with a lot of them. Chloe is one of my all time favorites. She just felt genuine and being gay wasn’t her entire identity

[Blankenshipcasey91]

Originally posted by Bishi:

@YahN I'm not even sure why I'm engaging with your reply. I guess because you are @ing me. *Sigh*

I did not ask for any race swapping, but you did point out your own default to the next best thing when mentioning Kat (and Dylan). Also... Swann is the MC. So, yeah, the ♥♥♥♥ you on about mate? I just finished the garage band scene, so I guess I'll see how she acts later on. It'll take me a few more days to finish Tape 1 most likely.

The game is set in America. And let me tell you something. Just getting my groceries I nearly bump into someone twice as wide as I am every 20 feet. But you are right, obesity has only been climbing since the 90s and people here on average were thinner back then. Does not rule out their existence however. Anyway, here is some data on the States you can peruse if you want. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/pdfs/mm6650a1-H.pdf

It's almost paradoxical how this country engages with the topic. I guess games like this are a good lesson to not be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about it.

Everyone knows they exist and it’s not about being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ it’s a game not real life. Do they want to make great games that more people love or do they want to needlessly remind people that others can be overweight or gay or not attractive because those things are everywhere lately. People just want characters that are visually appealing and that feel genuine. When a game studio is virtue signaling, or even just trying to be inclusive or not offend anyone it stands out like a sore thumb because they force it and it just kills immersion. There are all types of people in the world but it’s not the real world it’s a fantasy and if you want to appeal to as many people as possible you make characters who look good. I saw one woman say she was already chubby and not pretty in real life why would she want to be that in a game? Its supposed to be fun and a fantasy and sorry but activism and identity politics just aren’t fun for most people.

[Fiesta! Fiesta!]

Originally posted by Blankenshipcasey91:

People just want characters that are visually appealing and that feel genuine. When a game studio is virtue signaling, or even just trying to be inclusive or not offend anyone it stands out like a sore thumb because they force it and it just kills immersion. There are all types of people in the world but it’s not the real world it’s a fantasy and if you want to appeal to as many people as possible you make characters who look good. I saw one woman say she was already chubby and not pretty in real life why would she want to be that in a game? Its supposed to be fun and a fantasy and sorry but activism and identity politics just aren’t fun for most people.

your argument is nuts. There is plenty of evidence that characters can look all sorts of ways and people like them. Your bias is so clear that it feels dumb to point it out; that you cant even imagine that they just created a character with those traits because thats the story they wanted to tell. that having a chubby or black character is just identity politics. that it cant come from inspiration. only hot people are "genuine" otherwise it "breaks your immersion".

im sorry but you guys are brain poisoned regarding this. youre directly equating a character (lets be real, a woman character) attractiveness to how fun the game is and that games are nothing more than fun and fantasy. you can at least understand others like different things. i dont go into a gooner game and say "uh its distracting having all the women with huge anime tits wtf. its not genuine. my immersion is ruined". That would be insane and so narrow minded. its not all about YOUR worldview. people have been telling stories about all sorts of different people for millennia. this is a you problem.

if you see a fat girl or black person in a video game/movie and think "woke/dei/etc" you need something to unplug for a few weeks. prolly months actually.

[ViccyQ]

Originally posted by Blankenshipcasey91:

I have tried so many times to put those views into words and have either never been able too or was just flat out hated one. It kills immersion and just doesn’t feel genuine when you know that characters are made a certain way because of some real life opinion. People like beauty. Not just men women too I’ve heard my wife’s romance novels. I am certainly anti woke but that doesn’t mean no gay or black people or especially no women, it just means create a world and make characters that fit it and don’t purposely make them unattractive because it’s a game not real life. Most importantly. I want to escape in a game not be reminded all the time about how real life politics especially when I disagree with a lot of them. Chloe is one of my all time favorites. She just felt genuine and being gay wasn’t her entire identity

1. Use the space bar, my millennial eyes are struggling.

2. Unattractive Characters - I feel like with this logic you are forced to make unrealistic characters. Not every character is BayWatch Hot. I'd rather they made a disheveled townie character who can always have a glow up with just minimal make overs like hair change, make up, wardrobe.

I love that DNTND puts the spotlight on people / characters who normally would not get it cause of societal expectations.

Super nerdy, geeky girls existed in the 90's

There seems to be this obsession from your types who just want every character they play to be hyper sexual, appealing to some array of your fantasies to be considered "Hot".

3. How are people still playing LIS type games but expecting to "escape" play. These aren't games you just turn your brain off and mow down enemies. If there is to be immersion then there is to be deep familiar engagement.

The racist events of LIS 2 brought familiar stresses from my life personally but put me in the driver seat to navigate them in ways I normally would not in real like..aka immersion.

All the vocal upset players from LIS 2 seemed to unanimously be the folks who felt targeted by DNTND in portrayal of said racist - bigoted characters.