SPOILERS I hate how Lancer was handled

[allknowingeel]

Jeanne's whole character is about how she is incorruptible, that's her whole deal. It was a plot point in fate grand order's New Orleans singularity and was meant to hammer home how she is not able to have a true alter due to how pure she is as a person. This would be fine if lancer was Jeanne alter but it's not. That is the actual Jeanne, who despite being canonically stated to be incorruptible, has been corrupted. This completely breaks her entire character and makes no sense at all. I have heard that she wanted to save Chiemon's soul, but that also doesn't make sense. That basically means Jeanne's thought process before she got corrupted (which again is meant to be impossible) was "Yeah, he may want to destroy the entire world itself due to his anger, but i'll go along with it to try and save him". That is basically the same as saying to Gilles De Rais "Yeah you did unspeakable acts of rape and murder to little boys, but that's fine, I want to gloss over that and save you. " Am I missing something?

[GoodIntent]

Chiemon's mental pollution only did as far as a alignment reversal, which meant that she just got a massive debuff as a trade off for lancer class and cursed flames. Though as there's nothing to corrupt and she also refuses to completely utilize curses/incapable to it's just a bad trade all around, but it's also noted that in order for her to be summoned by a low rate magus like Chiemon a massive nerf is needed anyways.

As for why she's prioritizing Chiemon instead of trying to save the masses it's because that she is here to answer he's prayers or so to speak, as he had asked the lord to forgive him for what he is about to do and Jeanne knows about his past and reason for his wish. It's a twisted mirroring of how she heard the lament of the lord and decided to rise up even though she knows through providence she would have a tragic end and take many lives along the way.

My personal take is that she's just "Jeanne the tired" lol, though the other reason is that Koei Tecmo wanted Jalter but Jalter isn't even in the throne and all soooo....

[allknowingeel]

Originally posted by GoodIntent:

Chiemon's mental pollution only did as far as a alignment reversal, which meant that she just got a massive debuff as a trade off for lancer class and cursed flames. Though as there's nothing to corrupt and she also refuses to completely utilize curses/incapable to it's just a bad trade all around, but it's also noted that in order for her to be summoned by a low rate magus like Chiemon a massive nerf is needed anyways.

As for why she's prioritizing Chiemon instead of trying to save the masses it's because that she is here to answer he's prayers or so to speak, as he had asked the lord to forgive him for what he is about to do and Jeanne knows about his past and reason for his wish. It's a twisted mirroring of how she heard the lament of the lord and decided to rise up even though she knows through providence she would have a tragic end and take many lives along the way.

My personal take is that she's just "Jeanne the tired" lol, though the other reason is that Koei Tecmo wanted Jalter but Jalter isn't even in the throne and all soooo....

I don't have a problem with her class change to lancer, that is totally fine and makes sense as you can't summon a ruler as your personal servant, which is what Jeanne is. But it's more that she has been corrupted to some degree. She's not completely corrupted, as you say she doesn't fully utilise her powers, archer even says that in the dlc digression episode. Something about "You're not completely evil, you're not willing to utilise the flames to their full power" or something along those lines. And that she looks like an alter (pale skin, pale hear and yellow eyes) when she literally can't be one.

As someone who actually rather likes her character (Yes she is one of my favourite characters), I can't see her helping Chiemon. I could see her looking at Chiemon's pleading and his anguish and then deciding to go to him, weakening herself to be summoned by him and then keeping an eye on him or trying to talk him out of his crazy plan, then getting corrupted and changing. But that also doesn't really work as she can't get corrupted. Yes she wants to save people and their souls, but she would never allow someone to just destroy the world, she's not that stupid. As for the mirroring, I respectfully disagree, mostly. Jeanne supposedly heard the lord and interpreted his signs. Chiemon had a horrible experience with Japan and it's treatment of Christians and is now been reduced to an angry, broken shell of hatred. Also keep in mind that fate's version of Jeanne, never killed anyone in battle, so she never took any lives herself, she was just a moral booster. I just don't really see them as being connected in that way, but that's honestly up to subjective opinion.

Keep in mind i also have a seperate problem with her helping the sort of antagonist of fate extella the umbral star. I'll spoiler tag this in case you planned on playing through it.

Altera is more or less trying to destroy the mooncell. Jeanne is summoned by the moon cell to stop her. Altera almost defeats her and then she gets wouded by Gilgamesh's surprise attack and retreats. She then just joins Altera. It is sort of impled that she wanted to understand and ultimately save Altera as Altera doesn't really want to destroy things, but she beleives it is her purpose and so she must do it, regardless of if she wants to or not. I don't think this really holds up, like if she succeeds, she literally destroys the mooncell, It can be sort seen as okay as no one aside from Hakuno will actually die, but that's still pretty weak justification.

Basically I feel like only fate go depicts Jeanne well, and sort of fate apoc. I think portraying her in an ultimately villainous roles does not fit her character.

[King Of Lolis]

I like this version the best aside from orleans one
but here she only existed to help out chiemon rather than be star of their group
not all servants will get kind treatment like medusa from stay night or hollow

In all 3 routes it felt....poetic if you will
Glad there was no cheesy move like her changing chiemons heart or something

[GoodIntent]

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

I don't have a problem with her class change to lancer, that is totally fine and makes sense as you can't summon a ruler as your personal servant, which is what Jeanne is. But it's more that she has been corrupted to some degree. She's not completely corrupted, as you say she doesn't fully utilise her powers, archer even says that in the dlc digression episode. Something about "You're not completely evil, you're not willing to utilise the flames to their full power" or something along those lines. And that she looks like an alter (pale skin, pale hear and yellow eyes) when she literally can't be one.

As someone who actually rather likes her character (Yes she is one of my favourite characters), I can't see her helping Chiemon. I could see her looking at Chiemon's pleading and his anguish and then deciding to go to him, weakening herself to be summoned by him and then keeping an eye on him or trying to talk him out of his crazy plan, then getting corrupted and changing. But that also doesn't really work as she can't get corrupted. Yes she wants to save people and their souls, but she would never allow someone to just destroy the world, she's not that stupid. As for the mirroring, I respectfully disagree, mostly. Jeanne supposedly heard the lord and interpreted his signs. Chiemon had a horrible experience with Japan and it's treatment of Christians and is now been reduced to an angry, broken shell of hatred. Also keep in mind that fate's version of Jeanne, never killed anyone in battle, so she never took any lives herself, she was just a moral booster. I just don't really see them as being connected in that way, but that's honestly up to subjective opinion.

Keep in mind i also have a seperate problem with her helping the sort of antagonist of fate extella the umbral star. I'll spoiler tag this in case you planned on playing through it.

Altera is more or less trying to destroy the mooncell. Jeanne is summoned by the moon cell to stop her. Altera almost defeats her and then she gets wouded by Gilgamesh's surprise attack and retreats. She then just joins Altera. It is sort of impled that she wanted to understand and ultimately save Altera as Altera doesn't really want to destroy things, but she beleives it is her purpose and so she must do it, regardless of if she wants to or not. I don't think this really holds up, like if she succeeds, she literally destroys the mooncell, It can be sort seen as okay as no one aside from Hakuno will actually die, but that's still pretty weak justification.

Basically I feel like only fate go depicts Jeanne well, and sort of fate apoc. I think portraying her in an ultimately villainous roles does not fit her character.

While it's true that Jean is the mary sue arch type saint and never drawn the sword she carries in battle she's also not just a moral booster, it's explicitly mentioned that she lead the charges and rush head first into battles. She's also noted to make no compromises on tactics like wanting to use the cannons when they run out of arrows, when cannons at that time was considered a siege weapon and using them against infantries was a horrifying thought. She's basically "If it's not against the rules or morally corrupt then why not" kinda commander when in battle, she may not have personally killed someone but she had accepted that the path she had chosen would be a bloody one.

As for if she's been corrupted or not my interpretation is that the cursed/vengeful flames are the proverbial burden that she decided to carry with Chiemon, willfully casting away her sainthood and accompanying him through the hell that his life has become and the sufferings that he would create. That's why I said it's a twisted mirroring as it's not an act of salvation but rather of compassion and blind devotion.

Though she did have the resolve to see it through she didn't have the curse for the world Chiemon had (non of her NPs has a vengeful or hateful theme), which is why that he had to use command seal to make her use Flamme Pays Étranger as it could also be interpreted as him channeling the hatred he had for the world.

Chiemon using La Pucell is also not a sign that he had found peace but rather accepting that the hatred he has would not ultimately bring anything, that he had never went beyond that hellish night and didn't want to admit that all had been for nothing. It's his way of accepting judgement and also to make sure you-know-who is punished.

As for Extella I think Jean's motive is that she saw Altera wasn't evil but needed guidance? It's been a while so I can't be sure.

Anyways, those are my takes and I don't think Jeanne would have burned the world down. She might have La Pucell'd them both if it comes to it, I would also not be surprised if there was a draft for the story where Chiemon was just bit short on getting you-know-who and Jeanne would come in with La Pucell and burns with him.

[allknowingeel]

Originally posted by GoodIntent:

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

I don't have a problem with her class change to lancer, that is totally fine and makes sense as you can't summon a ruler as your personal servant, which is what Jeanne is. But it's more that she has been corrupted to some degree. She's not completely corrupted, as you say she doesn't fully utilise her powers, archer even says that in the dlc digression episode. Something about "You're not completely evil, you're not willing to utilise the flames to their full power" or something along those lines. And that she looks like an alter (pale skin, pale hear and yellow eyes) when she literally can't be one.

As someone who actually rather likes her character (Yes she is one of my favourite characters), I can't see her helping Chiemon. I could see her looking at Chiemon's pleading and his anguish and then deciding to go to him, weakening herself to be summoned by him and then keeping an eye on him or trying to talk him out of his crazy plan, then getting corrupted and changing. But that also doesn't really work as she can't get corrupted. Yes she wants to save people and their souls, but she would never allow someone to just destroy the world, she's not that stupid. As for the mirroring, I respectfully disagree, mostly. Jeanne supposedly heard the lord and interpreted his signs. Chiemon had a horrible experience with Japan and it's treatment of Christians and is now been reduced to an angry, broken shell of hatred. Also keep in mind that fate's version of Jeanne, never killed anyone in battle, so she never took any lives herself, she was just a moral booster. I just don't really see them as being connected in that way, but that's honestly up to subjective opinion.

Keep in mind i also have a seperate problem with her helping the sort of antagonist of fate extella the umbral star. I'll spoiler tag this in case you planned on playing through it.

Altera is more or less trying to destroy the mooncell. Jeanne is summoned by the moon cell to stop her. Altera almost defeats her and then she gets wouded by Gilgamesh's surprise attack and retreats. She then just joins Altera. It is sort of impled that she wanted to understand and ultimately save Altera as Altera doesn't really want to destroy things, but she beleives it is her purpose and so she must do it, regardless of if she wants to or not. I don't think this really holds up, like if she succeeds, she literally destroys the mooncell, It can be sort seen as okay as no one aside from Hakuno will actually die, but that's still pretty weak justification.

Basically I feel like only fate go depicts Jeanne well, and sort of fate apoc. I think portraying her in an ultimately villainous roles does not fit her character.

While it's true that Jean is the mary sue arch type saint and never drawn the sword she carries in battle she's also not just a moral booster, it's explicitly mentioned that she lead the charges and rush head first into battles. She's also noted to make no compromises on tactics like wanting to use the cannons when they run out of arrows, when cannons at that time was considered a siege weapon and using them against infantries was a horrifying thought. She's basically "If it's not against the rules or morally corrupt then why not" kinda commander when in battle, she may not have personally killed someone but she had accepted that the path she had chosen would be a bloody one.

As for if she's been corrupted or not my interpretation is that the cursed/vengeful flames are the proverbial burden that she decided to carry with Chiemon, willfully casting away her sainthood and accompanying him through the hell that his life has become and the sufferings that he would create. That's why I said it's a twisted mirroring as it's not an act of salvation but rather of compassion and blind devotion.

Though she did have the resolve to see it through she didn't have the curse for the world Chiemon had (non of her NPs has a vengeful or hateful theme), which is why that he had to use command seal to make her use Flamme Pays Étranger as it could also be interpreted as him channeling the hatred he had for the world.

Chiemon using La Pucell is also not a sign that he had found peace but rather accepting that the hatred he has would not ultimately bring anything, that he had never went beyond that hellish night and didn't want to admit that all had been for nothing. It's his way of accepting judgement and also to make sure you-know-who is punished.

As for Extella I think Jean's motive is that she saw Altera wasn't evil but needed guidance? It's been a while so I can't be sure.

Anyways, those are my takes and I don't think Jeanne would have burned the world down. She might have La Pucell'd them both if it comes to it, I would also not be surprised if there was a draft for the story where Chiemon was just bit short on getting you-know-who and Jeanne would come in with La Pucell and burns with him.

I'm not sure if fate Jeanne had the same things about what she did in terms of tactics. I am aware that historical Jeanne did some questionable things in regards to morals on the battlefield, But from my understanding, Fate's interpretation of Jeanne basically takes all of her things at face value (Hearing voices from god and interpreting them, being a holy virgin etc, never personally killing but being okay with orders that did kill). Whether or not that soaks her hands in blood is another discussion but i see what you mean.

Her casting away her sainthood and allowing herself to look like an alter, actually makes sense. Yeah I can see Jeanne actually doing that.

I basically agree with all your other takes. Especially her just killing them both at the end if her master really did start wishing for the world to burn.

[LE$IK-88]

it's all Higashide fault. It was bad writing, what's all.

All they need have to do - it was 17th century now, Jeanne had not yet been canonized, so there was a chance of summoning her “Witch” form and say hello "Innocent Monster" skill.

[allknowingeel]

Originally posted by LE$IK-88:

it's all Higashide fault. It was bad writing, what's all.

All they need have to do - it was 17th century now, Jeanne had not yet been canonized, so there was a chance of summoning her “Witch” form and say hello "Innocent Monster" skill. :jeannehappy:

Higashide really likes Jeanne for some reason. Writing about her in fate go New Orleans (Relatively good depiction), fate apoc (okay but not my favourite take on her character), and now this which I have stated my opinion on, which I don't really like but understand it a bit more now thanks to GoodIntent.

Fate go new Orleans was what made me like her in the first place. It may be a bit basic sure, but I like the concept of a character that just can't be corrupted due to purity. Kind of like the opposite of Gilgamesh who can't be corrupted due to his arrogance and ego.

[GoodIntent]

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

I'm not sure if fate Jeanne had the same things about what she did in terms of tactics. I am aware that historical Jeanne did some questionable things in regards to morals on the battlefield, But from my understanding, Fate's interpretation of Jeanne basically takes all of her things at face value (Hearing voices from god and interpreting them, being a holy virgin etc, never personally killing but being okay with orders that did kill). Whether or not that soaks her hands in blood is another discussion but i see what you mean.

Her casting away her sainthood and allowing herself to look like an alter, actually makes sense. Yeah I can see Jeanne actually doing that.

I basically agree with all your other takes. Especially her just killing them both at the end if her master really did start wishing for the world to burn.

Yeah, there are very little 3rd person point of view about what Type Moon Jeanne did. But her first mention in published works; Kara no Kyoukai/The Garden of Sinners Mikiya did note that the tactics she employed are similar to the modern ones, though he also thought that she had counter force boost... so it's still a toss up.

But even though she is pure without a doubt she is not innocent. While her comrades thought she accepted judgement to save them she did also accepted it as she sees as a just one. And in not deeming herself free of sin and accepting judgement without spite, entitlement and contempt made her a saint amount saints in the Type moon-verse. As she had mentioned herself that even though she does not like fighting she is not afraid of been stained by blood.

[allknowingeel]

Originally posted by GoodIntent:

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

I'm not sure if fate Jeanne had the same things about what she did in terms of tactics. I am aware that historical Jeanne did some questionable things in regards to morals on the battlefield, But from my understanding, Fate's interpretation of Jeanne basically takes all of her things at face value (Hearing voices from god and interpreting them, being a holy virgin etc, never personally killing but being okay with orders that did kill). Whether or not that soaks her hands in blood is another discussion but i see what you mean.

Her casting away her sainthood and allowing herself to look like an alter, actually makes sense. Yeah I can see Jeanne actually doing that.

I basically agree with all your other takes. Especially her just killing them both at the end if her master really did start wishing for the world to burn.

Yeah, there are very little 3rd person point of view about what Type Moon Jeanne did. But her first mention in published works; Kara no Kyoukai/The Garden of Sinners Mikiya did note that the tactics she employed are similar to the modern ones, though he also thought that she had counter force boost... so it's still a toss up.

But even though she is pure without a doubt she is not innocent. While her comrades thought she accepted judgement to save them she did also accepted it as she sees as a just one. And in not deeming herself free of sin and accepting judgement without spite, entitlement and contempt made her a saint amount saints in the Type moon-verse. As she had mentioned herself that even though she does not like fighting she is not afraid of been stained by blood.

I'm not really sure about her not being innocent since it was during wartime, so technically she didn't actually commit crimes, unless it was war crimes, which I don't know if they were a thing back then, or if anything she did back then could now be considered war crimes (I'm very ignorant about this subject though). But if we're taking innocence ina more loose meaning and relating it to other people's suffering, then I don't think anyone is truly innocent, everyone has caused another person to suffer in some way, regardless of if it was intentional or not. Also I had no idea she was mentioned in Garden of Sinners, a work that came out long before Fate and just so happened to talk about Jeanne when she wasn't even a character yet. That is one hell of coincidence

[GoodIntent]

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

I'm not really sure about her not being innocent since it was during wartime, so technically she didn't actually commit crimes, unless it was war crimes, which I don't know if they were a thing back then, or if anything she did back then could now be considered war crimes (I'm very ignorant about this subject though). But if we're taking innocence ina more loose meaning and relating it to other people's suffering, then I don't think anyone is truly innocent, everyone has caused another person to suffer in some way, regardless of if it was intentional or not. Also I had no idea she was mentioned in Garden of Sinners, a work that came out long before Fate and just so happened to talk about Jeanne when she wasn't even a character yet. That is one hell of coincidence

Oh yeah I'm not going that broad about if someone has sinned or not, I just meant that she was never self righteous about what she has done and accepted judgement willingly for it.

Also as Nasu has wrote tones of stuff and still going I'm pretty sure there are still ALOT of Jeanne stuff and character materials he wrote early on that isn't published lawl

[allknowingeel]

Originally posted by GoodIntent:

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

I'm not really sure about her not being innocent since it was during wartime, so technically she didn't actually commit crimes, unless it was war crimes, which I don't know if they were a thing back then, or if anything she did back then could now be considered war crimes (I'm very ignorant about this subject though). But if we're taking innocence ina more loose meaning and relating it to other people's suffering, then I don't think anyone is truly innocent, everyone has caused another person to suffer in some way, regardless of if it was intentional or not. Also I had no idea she was mentioned in Garden of Sinners, a work that came out long before Fate and just so happened to talk about Jeanne when she wasn't even a character yet. That is one hell of coincidence

Oh yeah I'm not going that broad about if someone has sinned or not, I just meant that she was never self righteous about what she has done and accepted judgement willingly for it.

Also as Nasu has wrote tones of stuff and still going I'm pretty sure there are still ALOT of Jeanne stuff and character materials he wrote early on that isn't published lawl

Ah ok that makes sense. And yeah I agree that she didn't really see what she was doing as morally right or stuff like that. She accepted that what she was doing was war, and it was going to result in death on both sides, and she accepted what lay at the end of the road for her.

Also small correction, Nasu didn't write the majority of the stuff on Jeanne, Higashide did. He is the one who wrote fate go New Orleans which first introduced her in the fate world. Then he wrote fate apoc, and supposedly had a hand in writing this version of Jeanne as she is his character. Honestly Higashide writing is hit and miss for me, I orignially thought he had just one bad work (fate apoc) but loved his work in New Orleans with how he was able to work a large amount of characters resonably well (Jeanne, Motzart, Marie, Siegfried, Saint George, Elizabeth Bathory, Kiyhohime). He also set up arks for most of them. Eliazabeth confronted her older serial killer self and even knowing that her history is set in stone, refused to accept it and fought against her. Marie saw her executioner again and history repeated itself but she died knowing that once again, she was helpful to people. Motzart got to take out her killer as Marie was someone he loved deeply even if he would never say it. Siegried was once again able to fell the evil dragon Fafnir. George lived up to his name and protected innocent people and helped cure Siegfried's curses. And Jeanne was able to say what she needed to, to Jeanne alter and understand that Jeanne alter isn't even related to her.

It even gave us Jeanne alter, who I despise, but many people like her and this was her first appearance. The story isn't perfect, it doesn't really utilise Kiyohime, she's just sort of there to bicker with Elizabeth, so she's just there to show off Elizabeth's character I guess. The antagonists that aren't Jeanne Alter or Gilles are sort of bland and just exist to be defeated, and for the life of me I cannot figure out why Phantom of the Opera just appears in one scene and then you beat him and gone and never mentioned. Was he even working for Jeanne alter? But aside from these flaws, I liked the story and wanted to see more like it, large casts that for the most part and well utilised and maybe even call back to their myth or history. Higashide's stories are either something I love, or hate.

[GoodIntent]

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

Ah ok that makes sense. And yeah I agree that she didn't really see what she was doing as morally right or stuff like that. She accepted that what she was doing was war, and it was going to result in death on both sides, and she accepted what lay at the end of the road for her.

Also small correction, Nasu didn't write the majority of the stuff on Jeanne, Higashide did. He is the one who wrote fate go New Orleans which first introduced her in the fate world. Then he wrote fate apoc, and supposedly had a hand in writing this version of Jeanne as she is his character. Honestly Higashide writing is hit and miss for me, I orignially thought he had just one bad work (fate apoc) but loved his work in New Orleans with how he was able to work a large amount of characters resonably well (Jeanne, Motzart, Marie, Siegfried, Saint George, Elizabeth Bathory, Kiyhohime). He also set up arks for most of them. Eliazabeth confronted her older serial killer self and even knowing that her history is set in stone, refused to accept it and fought against her. Marie saw her executioner again and history repeated itself but she died knowing that once again, she was helpful to people. Motzart got to take out her killer as Marie was someone he loved deeply even if he would never say it. Siegried was once again able to fell the evil dragon Fafnir. George lived up to his name and protected innocent people and helped cure Siegfried's curses. And Jeanne was able to say what she needed to, to Jeanne alter and understand that Jeanne alter isn't even related to her.

It even gave us Jeanne alter, who I despise, but many people like her and this was her first appearance. The story isn't perfect, it doesn't really utilise Kiyohime, she's just sort of there to bicker with Elizabeth, so she's just there to show off Elizabeth's character I guess. The antagonists that aren't Jeanne Alter or Gilles are sort of bland and just exist to be defeated, and for the life of me I cannot figure out why Phantom of the Opera just appears in one scene and then you beat him and gone and never mentioned. Was he even working for Jeanne alter? But aside from these flaws, I liked the story and wanted to see more like it, large casts that for the most part and well utilised and maybe even call back to their myth or history. Higashide's stories are either something I love, or hate.

Well, yes I'm aware that Higashide is the writer of Apocrypha and FGO New Orleans but I'm pretty sure that Jeanne was already a established character even before the novelization of Apocrypha happened (also the first volume of the novel actually come out 3 years prior to the lunch of FGO and the last volume of it comes out a year before FGO).

Apocrypha at it's inception was a scrapped MMO project that existed even earlier which was first mentioned in Fate/complete material IV Extra material, where many servants and settings including a playable Saber version of Jeanne was present. Karna and Kintoki where also a part of that roster recalling off my memory.

So I guess Apocrypha actually did end up going pretty far as Extra and FGO ends up sharing lots stuff from it, also kinda funny Jeanne ended up in all of it.

As for Higashide's writing I'm probably like more Apocrypha as a whole? Though it's probably because he got to bounce other characters off Sieg. But I do think FGO has more synergy and pizzazz as a dream team scenario where everybody ended up filling out for each other.

[Raitoiro]

Personnaly, I like the idea of Jeanne chosing to be summoned in that form to save Chiemon before he actually commits atrocities, I think it's a really cool set up, the execution just didn't follow.
Chiemon and her really needed more screen time to make it work.
Honestly, both antagonist team have that issue, and could really use more character developpement. I think they made a mistake by including the rogue servants, aside from Berserker, none of them played a role in the main story which couldn't have been done by a big monster, and they take time away from the main cast.
Hopefully, SR gets a manga adaptation at some point.

[allknowingeel]

Originally posted by GoodIntent:

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

Ah ok that makes sense. And yeah I agree that she didn't really see what she was doing as morally right or stuff like that. She accepted that what she was doing was war, and it was going to result in death on both sides, and she accepted what lay at the end of the road for her.

Also small correction, Nasu didn't write the majority of the stuff on Jeanne, Higashide did. He is the one who wrote fate go New Orleans which first introduced her in the fate world. Then he wrote fate apoc, and supposedly had a hand in writing this version of Jeanne as she is his character. Honestly Higashide writing is hit and miss for me, I orignially thought he had just one bad work (fate apoc) but loved his work in New Orleans with how he was able to work a large amount of characters resonably well (Jeanne, Motzart, Marie, Siegfried, Saint George, Elizabeth Bathory, Kiyhohime). He also set up arks for most of them. Eliazabeth confronted her older serial killer self and even knowing that her history is set in stone, refused to accept it and fought against her. Marie saw her executioner again and history repeated itself but she died knowing that once again, she was helpful to people. Motzart got to take out her killer as Marie was someone he loved deeply even if he would never say it. Siegried was once again able to fell the evil dragon Fafnir. George lived up to his name and protected innocent people and helped cure Siegfried's curses. And Jeanne was able to say what she needed to, to Jeanne alter and understand that Jeanne alter isn't even related to her.

It even gave us Jeanne alter, who I despise, but many people like her and this was her first appearance. The story isn't perfect, it doesn't really utilise Kiyohime, she's just sort of there to bicker with Elizabeth, so she's just there to show off Elizabeth's character I guess. The antagonists that aren't Jeanne Alter or Gilles are sort of bland and just exist to be defeated, and for the life of me I cannot figure out why Phantom of the Opera just appears in one scene and then you beat him and gone and never mentioned. Was he even working for Jeanne alter? But aside from these flaws, I liked the story and wanted to see more like it, large casts that for the most part and well utilised and maybe even call back to their myth or history. Higashide's stories are either something I love, or hate.

Well, yes I'm aware that Higashide is the writer of Apocrypha and FGO New Orleans but I'm pretty sure that Jeanne was already a established character even before the novelization of Apocrypha happened (also the first volume of the novel actually come out 3 years prior to the lunch of FGO and the last volume of it comes out a year before FGO).

Apocrypha at it's inception was a scrapped MMO project that existed even earlier which was first mentioned in Fate/complete material IV Extra material, where many servants and settings including a playable Saber version of Jeanne was present. Karna and Kintoki where also a part of that roster recalling off my memory.

So I guess Apocrypha actually did end up going pretty far as Extra and FGO ends up sharing lots stuff from it, also kinda funny Jeanne ended up in all of it.

As for Higashide's writing I'm probably like more Apocrypha as a whole? Though it's probably because he got to bounce other characters off Sieg. But I do think FGO has more synergy and pizzazz as a dream team scenario where everybody ended up filling out for each other.

I did know about fate apoc's mmo roots and Nasu would have 100% been involved in that now that I think about it. So I guess he probably made the base concept for Jeanne, then the mmo abandoned and we got the novel and Higashide picked up Jeanne's character and just sort of became her writer whenever she's involved in a story, then the manga and anime. My main problem with Apoc is Sieg. He's not terrible but compare him to any type moon protag. Against Shirou (VN Shriou specifically), against Shiiki from Tsukihime, against Shiki from Garden of Sinners, against Aoko Aozaki from Mahayo, against even Haukuno from fate extra, he doesn't stack up. Not to mention how he just wins against Karma of all people who is meant to be able to go toe to toe with Gilgamesh (archer). How he won, they never really touch on it, he just gets some random power up and hey that shield kind of helps I guess. And the fact that there is not really any chemistry between him and Jeanne. Why do they like each other? Who knows, we need a love interest because reasons. It just felt disappointing and lack luster. Imagin e Shirou had beaten Gil in ubw and he did through some deus ex shield plot device. He had everything in his favour, Gil underestimating him and not using EA straight away, Rin giving him mana, Gil being too cocky to not wear his armour, Shirou having past selves possess him, Gil not ever learning how to actually use a sword properly, etc, It didn't feel cheap . Full discolsure, I did not read the novel and using an adapation to judge a writers work is a flawed idea. But I am currently reading the manga which is actually written by the author of fate apoc and just in manga form. And so far it is much better. We get to see the backstory of EACH servant and not just a few. We learn more about how each servants abilities work (such as Siegfried's body can actually be perced by B rank or higher attacks, and how Achilles can be hurt by Chiron because Chiron's divinity allows him to bypass Achilles immortal body). So I hope that the manga can at least save apoc for me, because the anime didn't.

[GoodIntent]

Originally posted by allknowingeel:

I did know about fate apoc's mmo roots and Nasu would have 100% been involved in that now that I think about it. So I guess he probably made the base concept for Jeanne, then the mmo abandoned and we got the novel and Higashide picked up Jeanne's character and just sort of became her writer whenever she's involved in a story, then the manga and anime. My main problem with Apoc is Sieg. He's not terrible but compare him to any type moon protag. Against Shirou (VN Shriou specifically), against Shiiki from Tsukihime, against Shiki from Garden of Sinners, against Aoko Aozaki from Mahayo, against even Haukuno from fate extra, he doesn't stack up. Not to mention how he just wins against Karma of all people who is meant to be able to go toe to toe with Gilgamesh (archer). How he won, they never really touch on it, he just gets some random power up and hey that shield kind of helps I guess. And the fact that there is not really any chemistry between him and Jeanne. Why do they like each other? Who knows, we need a love interest because reasons. It just felt disappointing and lack luster. Imagin e Shirou had beaten Gil in ubw and he did through some deus ex shield plot device. He had everything in his favour, Gil underestimating him and not using EA straight away, Rin giving him mana, Gil being too cocky to not wear his armour, Shirou having past selves possess him, Gil not ever learning how to actually use a sword properly, etc, It didn't feel cheap . Full discolsure, I did not read the novel and using an adapation to judge a writers work is a flawed idea. But I am currently reading the manga which is actually written by the author of fate apoc and just in manga form. And so far it is much better. We get to see the backstory of EACH servant and not just a few. We learn more about how each servants abilities work (such as Siegfried's body can actually be perced by B rank or higher attacks, and how Achilles can be hurt by Chiron because Chiron's divinity allows him to bypass Achilles immortal body). So I hope that the manga can at least save apoc for me, because the anime didn't.

Yeah, anime is a heavily stripped down version of the novel. Haven't read the manga of Apocrypha but it should be leagues better than what the anime version ended up been.