Really liked this game, but...

[AmishJustice]

I hate, hate, hate the way the enemies spawn in. It's a real shame.

[NorionV]

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

Originally posted by NorionV:

When I realized the way enemy spawning works, I stopped rushing forward.

Like for example, when you see the trio of drones fly down, there WILL be a swarm of bugs soon after. You need to stop and back up.

I'll do you one better. I knew where the enemies were going to spawn in before they did, because they were so predictable. The lack of variation really killed it for me.

So is the complaint that it makes it too hard, or that you don't like how predictable the spawning is, or...?

It's not really clear what the issue is.

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

Originally posted by spirit69:

Could you elaborate? What exactly do you not like about it? The animations? Or that you see them spawning instead of them being there already when you arrive?

How should it be improved, in your opinion?

If the selling point of this game is that the enemies interact with one another, then if feels REALLY bad when they never feel like they exist until you're right on top of them. Not having a single instance where you get to see how these factions interact before they've noticed you is a huge missed opportunity.

My enemies kill each other all the time. I use it quite often.

[BrianRubin]

I honestly love watching enemies kill each other. Right now it's either grenades or lasers. So funny.

[AmishJustice]

Originally posted by NorionV:

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

I'll do you one better. I knew where the enemies were going to spawn in before they did, because they were so predictable. The lack of variation really killed it for me.

So is the complaint that it makes it too hard, or that you don't like how predictable the spawning is, or...?

It's not really clear what the issue is.

It's boring, lacks imagination, and makes for a poor play experience. It increases difficulty by decreasing a player's reaction time, not by providing a challenge associated with skill. As a result, it forces players into a predictive path, attempting to figure out where the enemies are likely to spawn so they can be targeted as quickly as possible. This quickly becomes rote, and dull.

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

If the selling point of this game is that the enemies interact with one another, then if feels REALLY bad when they never feel like they exist until you're right on top of them. Not having a single instance where you get to see how these factions interact before they've noticed you is a huge missed opportunity.

My enemies kill each other all the time. I use it quite often.

How often do they engage each other without seeing you first? Oh, wait, they can't do that, because they don't exist in the game until you are right on top of them.

[NorionV]

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

Originally posted by NorionV:

So is the complaint that it makes it too hard, or that you don't like how predictable the spawning is, or...?

It's not really clear what the issue is.

It's boring, lacks imagination, and makes for a poor play experience. It increases difficulty by decreasing a player's reaction time, not by providing a challenge associated with skill. As a result, it forces players into a predictive path, attempting to figure out where the enemies are likely to spawn so they can be targeted as quickly as possible. This quickly becomes rote, and dull.



My enemies kill each other all the time. I use it quite often.

How often do they engage each other without seeing you first? Oh, wait, they can't do that, because they don't exist in the game until you are right on top of them.

They don't 'engage each other' at all. That's not a part of the behavior. The idea is that you're using the enemy's various weapons to make them teamkill.

So even if they did 'exist on the map already'... nothing would happen. There's no point to having the enemies kill each other without your influence.

You seem to just dislike the dynamic spawning for some reason. Which is fair, but I can't say I identify with it. It's more interesting than all of the enemies just being on the map already when you get there, and makes the game more engaging and dangerous.

[AmishJustice]

Originally posted by NorionV:

You seem to just dislike the dynamic spawning for some reason. Which is fair, but I can't say I identify with it. It's more interesting than all of the enemies just being on the map already when you get there, and makes the game more engaging and dangerous.

To be honest, I've never heard of Dynamic Spawning before --- it sounds like a modern euphemism meaning very little in this case other than "enemies spawn when you get close". I don't mind opening a door and having enemies spawn, but when that spawning is right in my face ... well it breaks the verisimilitude, demands explanation, and feels hollow. Some people, like yourself, might be okay with that, but I need at least a few more frames of animation (and a few more varieties of them) to help keep it fresh.

[Tyrian Mollusk]

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

but when that spawning is right in my face ... well it breaks the verisimilitude, demands explanation, and feels hollow.

Verisimilitude? Now your getting pretty strained. We're saying spawning, but enemies ride up on elevators, fly down from above, come out of side doors, grow out of alien tendrils and pods twining around, get spat out by other enemies, and so on. What more "explanation" would we need?

And you don't seem to understand the enemies interacting aspect at all. They don't "interact" and you don't hang around and watch them in some weird private ecosystem. They are coming out only to kill you. They just don't care about killing each other in the process of coming after you, which you can use to your advantage because their predictable behavior is there to be gamed and make for fun, tactical fights. Fights that are purely about the enemies coming after you, and not about sitting around having tea.

[AmishJustice]

Originally posted by Tyrian Mollusk:

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

but when that spawning is right in my face ... well it breaks the verisimilitude, demands explanation, and feels hollow.

Verisimilitude? Now your getting pretty strained. We're saying spawning, but enemies ride up on elevators, fly down from above, come out of side doors, grow out of alien tendrils and pods twining around, get spat out by other enemies, and so on. What more "explanation" would we need?
And you don't seem to understand the enemies interacting aspect at all.

During my two levels, all enemies spawned in the same way. Bugs popped in bubbles that appear from nowhere and bots fly down from above. That was it.

I understand perfectly. I just think it's disappointing.

[Tyrian Mollusk]

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

]I understand perfectly. I just think it's disappointing.

The game story explicitly includes the alien swarm and the security bots turning on you instead of each other, and the store page clearly says you turn enemy attacks back against them because they take friendly fire, and nothing about enemies interacting with each other while you passively watch from the sidelines.

[AmishJustice]

Originally posted by Tyrian Mollusk:

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

]I understand perfectly. I just think it's disappointing.

The game story explicitly includes the alien swarm and the security bots turning on you instead of each other, and the store page clearly says you turn enemy attacks back against them because they take friendly fire, and nothing about enemies interacting with each other while you passively watch from the sidelines.

Like I said, I understand. I just feel like it's a disappointing missed opportunity for immersion. For me, this game would have been more fun if it had more variety of enemy types and the way they manifest. As it was, after a few levels, I felt like I'd had enough and I uninstalled it. I'd prefer to go back and play The Ascent again.

[NorionV]

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

Originally posted by Tyrian Mollusk:

Verisimilitude? Now your getting pretty strained. We're saying spawning, but enemies ride up on elevators, fly down from above, come out of side doors, grow out of alien tendrils and pods twining around, get spat out by other enemies, and so on. What more "explanation" would we need?
And you don't seem to understand the enemies interacting aspect at all.

During my two levels, all enemies spawned in the same way. Bugs popped in bubbles that appear from nowhere and bots fly down from above. That was it.

I understand perfectly. I just think it's disappointing.

Ah, I think I see the problem now.

You probably died to a funny ambush early on, and are now making up reasons that it's a bad mechanic.

I could go out of my way to engage with each point (Verisimilitude - oh, please), but none of them make much sense in the first place, so you do you. I will point out, though: I'm only on level 3, and there's probably around 5 or 6 enemy types you haven't even seen yet. That's not counting the elite and boss variants of each enemy, which also have different functionality and are much more dangerous. (But in a fun way.) And some of them spawn in differently as well as *gasp* exist on the map before you even get there!

The disappointment is that you won't get to see any of this because you got skill issue'd :(

To the dev: I really like the spawning mechanics. I won't tell you what to do, but I think the spawning is super cool and I feel like it adds character to the game and would be disappointed if it ever went away.

[AmishJustice]

Originally posted by NorionV:

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

During my two levels, all enemies spawned in the same way. Bugs popped in bubbles that appear from nowhere and bots fly down from above. That was it.

I understand perfectly. I just think it's disappointing.

Ah, I think I see the problem now.

You probably died to a funny ambush early on, and are now making up reasons that it's a bad mechanic.

The assumption is yours, and incorrect. I did not die during my time with this game. Just completed a few levels, came here to see if I was missing something, and then uninstalled.

Not sure why you're taking this so personally. There are tons of games on Steam, and I'm sure that I love a bunch of games that you absolutely hate. You are welcome to enjoy this game --- please do --- but I felt like the Developer ought to know that the mechanics of the game pushed a longtime gamer like myself away. That's what demos are for, right?

[NorionV]

Originally posted by AmishJustice:

Originally posted by NorionV:

Ah, I think I see the problem now.

You probably died to a funny ambush early on, and are now making up reasons that it's a bad mechanic.

The assumption is yours, and incorrect. I did not die during my time with this game. Just completed a few levels, came here to see if I was missing something, and then uninstalled.

Not sure why you're taking this so personally. There are tons of games on Steam, and I'm sure that I love a bunch of games that you absolutely hate. You are welcome to enjoy this game --- please do --- but I felt like the Developer ought to know that the mechanics of the game pushed a longtime gamer like myself away. That's what demos are for, right?

Speaking of assumptions, who said I'm taking anything personally? Just pointing out that the reasoning behind everything you're saying is extremely illogical and makes no sense, which points to certain conclusions.

Yes, the dynamic spawning method - which breaks immersion - as opposed to enemies just standing around in the level doing nothing - which would be more immersive, somehow - is what pushed you away.

Very believable.

From one 'longtime gamer' to another; don't worry, I understand.

[AmishJustice]

Originally posted by NorionV:

Yes, the dynamic spawning method - which breaks immersion - as opposed to enemies just standing around in the level doing nothing - which would be more immersive, somehow - is what pushed you away.

Very believable.

From one 'longtime gamer' to another; don't worry, I understand.

Do you understand the concept of Straw Man?

[Tyrian Mollusk]

I do wonder if there's a way for the game to win over people who come to a deliberately gamey, pure action shmup and then complain about the individual enemies not having a life history to explore and convince them they are real, because there are admittedly a lot of those kinds of people buying games out there. Doing that without compromising the action (as having enemies already out fighting each other clearly would) or simply spending a boatload of resources that this few-person project obviously won't have seems a pretty unreasonable ask, though.

It just strikes me as strange how easily people can ignore the action of the game. I saw that old soundless video of the game, and I knew I wanted to try playing it and see what else it had. I played the demo and I knew I wanted to buy it and play it a ton more. I've got criticisms, but pretty much every time I play, I just love riding the tide of battle, leading/throwing enemies into each other's attacks, chasing orbs, constantly flipping between the three guns with tactical pauses for better movement, and so on and so on. The enemies even manage to have charming little behaviors while still being dead set on attacking you, and they fixate on you without feeling boring for it like in many games nowadays. I have a kind of ridiculous number of twin-stick/top-down games, and CC's feel is genuinely distinct and engaging in ways that I find hard to ignore, while still being perfectly familiar and hitting those arcade twin-stick shmup notes so well within its dungeon crawler stylings.

But some people come, shoot some enemies, and are all, "OK, so that's it?" They bounce or just start asking the devs to make a different game for them. It'd be good to have a better response than the "Yeah that's f'ing it, are you f'ing blind?" that I try to skirt around... I don't know--when I try a demo I'm generally trying to figure out what this game has to offer and whether I'd go for that, rather than thinking the game is supposed to do what I want or else that ought to get addressed.

[NorionV]

Originally posted by Tyrian Mollusk:

I do wonder if there's a way for the game to win over people who come to a deliberately gamey, pure action shmup and then complain about the individual enemies not having a life history to explore and convince them they are real, because there are admittedly a lot of those kinds of people buying games out there. Doing that without compromising the action (as having enemies already out fighting each other clearly would) or simply spending a boatload of resources that this few-person project obviously won't have seems a pretty unreasonable ask, though.

It just strikes me as strange how easily people can ignore the action of the game. I saw that old soundless video of the game, and I knew I wanted to try playing it and see what else it had. I played the demo and I knew I wanted to buy it and play it a ton more. I've got criticisms, but pretty much every time I play, I just love riding the tide of battle, leading/throwing enemies into each other's attacks, chasing orbs, constantly flipping between the three guns with tactical pauses for better movement, and so on and so on. The enemies even manage to have charming little behaviors while still being dead set on attacking you, and they fixate on you without feeling boring for it like in many games nowadays. I have a kind of ridiculous number of twin-stick/top-down games, and CC's feel is genuinely distinct and engaging in ways that I find hard to ignore, while still being perfectly familiar and hitting those arcade twin-stick shmup notes so well within its dungeon crawler stylings.

But some people come, shoot some enemies, and are all, "OK, so that's it?" They bounce or just start asking the devs to make a different game for them. It'd be good to have a better response than the "Yeah that's f'ing it, are you f'ing blind?" that I try to skirt around... I don't know--when I try a demo I'm generally trying to figure out what this game has to offer and whether I'd go for that, rather than thinking the game is supposed to do what I want or else that ought to get addressed.

It's a type of genre, I guess. Like the 'boomer shooters' - most of those games are nothing but pure action, front to back. Almost no dialogue or lore whatsoever. I find them highly entertaining, and I don't require an elaborate story (which is usually mid at best, anyways) in my games to have fun. Gameplay first. But some people genuinely care enough about, say, how 'smooth' the graphics are, or how 'realistic' it is for that to be a deal breaker even if the gameplay is interesting.

I think we've just forgotten how to have fun for the sake of having fun, hah.