The problem with Ending 1

[Dude_84_Dude]

So I was working on an analysis of this game, its story and its characters, which I hope to have done this weekend (It's finished now and under the Guides section). And the more I think about it, the more I realize Ending 1 has serious problems and could've worked a lot better had Cavemanon not gone in the direction they went.

A lot of people don't like it because of how dark it is. I don't mind grim bad endings as a consequence for player choice, but the way they went about it just doesn't make sense. While Olivia's regression feels in character for her, Inco's sudden transformation into a sociopath feels out of left-field, and I know I'm not the only one who's made that observation. Even if you make all the wrong choices with Inco, his dialogue throughout the game still shows a lot of concern for Olivia and her well-being. The most you could say is he just becomes an indecisive coward, but not bad.

Here's how I think it would've worked better and been more in line with his character while being in line with him constantly acquiescing to peer pressure and insecurity. I think Ben should've been the one to take Olivia's picture. It could've worked out that Ben gets the idea to photograph Olivia while she's pouring her heart out, and Inco goes along with it at first. Then, when she's looking up at them both, he has a sudden realization about Ben's nature and tries to take the camera away as Olivia is leaving the stage.

The camera gets broken in the ensuing struggle to which Ben remarks to Inco, "you're just like her." Inco then rushes off to find Olivia and finds her near the stairs with Guts. He tries to apologize to her and she rounds on him saying, "you're just like Ben!" He then pours his heart out and apologize profusely, admitting his cowardice in the face of peer pressure throughout the game and how he only wanted what was best for her. She then looks down, saying, "maybe it's my fault for not telling you what Ben did to me..."

When Inco asks what Ben did she's unable to tell the story at that moment. Instead, she reaches out for a hug, which Inco begins to initiate. But right as they're ready to embrace, she sneezes hard, having caught Vinny's sickness, and falls backwards, making her fate as much her own doing as Inco's.

It then ends with Inco in the hospital besides Olivia, craddling Guts and cursing his own weakness in the face of Ben's demands and also his own belief that every decision he made for her had been in her best interest.

[Rаndo]

I do think that the game should've given at least one other ending a chance to actually explain what Ben's problem was, confining it to only E4 was a disservice.

E1 was alright imo since it follows the theme of the MC's greatest flaw overcoming their growth, with Anon's being that he cares too little about what others think (missing Fang's very obvious cries for help, and basically inspiring her after saying nothing matters), and Inco caring too much about what others think (trying to "fix" Olivia and basically becoming an emotionally abusive POS).

[LeventeKing]

Personally I like this lot more, since most characters are just legit one sided characters. Mia felt like she supposed to have a lot more behind her story, like being manipulated into doing Ben's dirty deeds, like legit felt like Mia was supposed to be a manipulated victim of Ben. Iadakan's death also felt so so so early? Like for me it did nothing on emotionally, yes he was good but if he died even later it would have been lot more better.

I also like what Rando, above my comment said, that Ben tries to manipulate Inco becoming like him, making him a terrible person while no one batting a eye on him. Mia should have realised that point that trying to fix Ben is not worth it and rans away.

[Dude_84_Dude]

Originally posted by LeventeKing:

Personally I like this lot more, since most characters are just legit one sided characters. Mia felt like she supposed to have a lot more behind her story, like being manipulated into doing Ben's dirty deeds, like legit felt like Mia was supposed to be a manipulated victim of Ben. Iadakan's death also felt so so so early? Like for me it did nothing on emotionally, yes he was good but if he died even later it would have been lot more better.

I also like what Rando, above my comment said, that Ben tries to manipulate Inco becoming like him, making him a terrible person while no one batting a eye on him. Mia should have realised that point that trying to fix Ben is not worth it and rans away.

I don't think Ben was manipulating Mia, I think that was just a lie she came up with on the spot. She was the one withholding his anti-psychotics and being physically abusive. Then when she's caught in the act with the whole school staring and muttering she's trying to think of a way out of the situation. It's only when someone in the crowd says "abusive" loud enough for her to hear that she latches onto it and makes something up on the spot. [spoiler/]

In Ending 1, she mentions that she's top of the class in drama, so I believe she was faking her emotions as a last ditch effort to save face. There's nothing redeemable about her, and much as some people might call that a one-sided villain, I don't think it's a big deal. Not every villain has to have a complex, sympathetic backstory. Sometimes all they need to be is an obstacle for the hero(es) to overcome. Some people really are just awful people by nature.

As for Iadakan, I don't think his death was too soon, but I do think it needed foreshadowing, like him feeling sick some days or something. He doesn't show up on the first day of school, so he could've called in sick then. Still, definitely needed foreshadowing.

[Dude_84_Dude]

Originally posted by Rаndo:

I do think that the game should've given at least one other ending a chance to actually explain what Ben's problem was, confining it to only E4 was a disservice.

E1 was alright imo since it follows the theme of the MC's greatest flaw overcoming their growth, with Anon's being that he cares too little about what others think (missing Fang's very obvious cries for help, and basically inspiring her after saying nothing matters), and Inco caring too much about what others think (trying to "fix" Olivia and basically becoming an emotionally abusive POS).

Ending 4 felt like it was supposed to be the last ending meant to be seen. It has a feeling of finality to it, like it comes after the end of a long adventure. That said, all endings have to be seen to fully grasp the entire narrative and what it says about each character.

I think Ending 3 says more about Olivia's personality than 4. In 3, she has an epiphany that what she'd really like to do is teach, like Iadakan.

[Osiris125]

Originally posted by Mister Dude:

As for Iadakan, I don't think his death was too soon, but I do think it needed foreshadowing, like him feeling sick some days or something. He doesn't show up on the first day of school, so he could've called in sick then. Still, definitely needed foreshadowing.

I think the writers were trying to toe the line as close as they felt they could in terms of not giving away that Iadakan was dying. Its clear they wanted the latter half to be focused on how Olivia processed the loss and how our choices leading up to that point set her up emotionally for success/failure. I think if they gave too much away so that we knew he'd die, a number of viewers would switch off from his character since they know he wouldn't be around much longer. For me, the tiny hints of something wrong (him being completely drained after destroying the art was the main one that hit me)

That said, I feel they had an opportunity to talk more about Iadakan and who he is when Inco is with the groom. Possibly alluding to how much effort Iadakan was still putting into everyone around him without actually saying that theres something wrong.

[LeventeKing]

I will be real, it just doesn't work for me whatsoever, lots of things just feels left out and Mia is literally a one sided ♥♥♥♥♥ with no redeeming qualities, the story I feel is solely focused on basically Inco helping out Olivia. Like legit just does not work for me whatsoever, the story for me is a weak at best and honestly it really depends on how you feel about Inco, because for me Inco is just a pathetic extrovert loser.

[Dude_84_Dude]

Originally posted by LeventeKing:

I will be real, it just doesn't work for me whatsoever, lots of things just feels left out and Mia is literally a one sided ♥♥♥♥♥ with no redeeming qualities, the story I feel is solely focused on basically Inco helping out Olivia. Like legit just does not work for me whatsoever, the story for me is a weak at best and honestly it really depends on how you feel about Inco, because for me Inco is just a pathetic extrovert loser.

Well I mean yes, Inco helping Olivia and in turn learning to be more assertive and independent IS the narrative and emotional crux of the story. As for Mia, she doesn't need to be complex or redeemable, as I said before.

Some people are under the impression that a one-dimensional villain is, by that very token, a poorly written villain. I disagree. A poorly written villain is a villain who does nothing but be evil arbitrarily. Mia's actions aren't arbitrary; they're a reflection of Olivia herself. Olivia has the capacity to be as manipulative and cruel as Mia if no one stands up to her. She's the anti-Olivia.

That said, this game does still have questionable writing choices. Inco works fine for the most part, but could've been written better in some parts of the game.

[LeventeKing]

>Some people are under the impression that a one-dimensional villain is, by that very token, a poorly written villain. I disagree. A poorly written villain is a villain who does nothing but be evil arbitrarily. Mia's actions aren't arbitrary; they're a reflection of Olivia herself. Olivia has the capacity to be as manipulative and cruel as Mia if no one stands up to her. She's the anti-Olivia.

My man that is bad writing, unless you want to assert your Oxford level english literarcy over me with Ancient Greek level philosophy meaning, I would still be calling it bad writing. Especially how *hard* some of the dialouges are and sentences, the choices really made me question it, especially two standing out for me particullary (one for the bbq party and the other Mia bullying Olivia).

[Dude_84_Dude]

Originally posted by LeventeKing:

>Some people are under the impression that a one-dimensional villain is, by that very token, a poorly written villain. I disagree. A poorly written villain is a villain who does nothing but be evil arbitrarily. Mia's actions aren't arbitrary; they're a reflection of Olivia herself. Olivia has the capacity to be as manipulative and cruel as Mia if no one stands up to her. She's the anti-Olivia.

My man that is bad writing, unless you want to assert your Oxford level english literarcy over me with Ancient Greek level philosophy meaning, I would still be calling it bad writing. Especially how *hard* some of the dialouges are and sentences, the choices really made me question it, especially two standing out for me particullary (one for the bbq party and the other Mia bullying Olivia).

Well that's, like, your opinion, "my man." Not every villain needs to have a le heckin tragic backstory, unless you actually like superfluous Disney remakes like Cruella and Maleficient. Ultimately, they just need to serve their purpose, which is to be an obstacle for the hero(es) to overcome. Thinking every character needs to be deep and complex is pretentious. Sometimes the mechanics of narrative driven storytelling require efficiency and expediency. Making every character some exploration of philosophical or psychological themes does neither.

[DaFlyingSeal]

Originally posted by Mister Dude:

Originally posted by LeventeKing:

Personally I like this lot more, since most characters are just legit one sided characters. Mia felt like she supposed to have a lot more behind her story, like being manipulated into doing Ben's dirty deeds, like legit felt like Mia was supposed to be a manipulated victim of Ben. Iadakan's death also felt so so so early? Like for me it did nothing on emotionally, yes he was good but if he died even later it would have been lot more better.

I also like what Rando, above my comment said, that Ben tries to manipulate Inco becoming like him, making him a terrible person while no one batting a eye on him. Mia should have realised that point that trying to fix Ben is not worth it and rans away.

I don't think Ben was manipulating Mia, I think that was just a lie she came up with on the spot. She was the one withholding his anti-psychotics and being physically abusive. Then when she's caught in the act with the whole school staring and muttering she's trying to think of a way out of the situation. It's only when someone in the crowd says "abusive" loud enough for her to hear that she latches onto it and makes something up on the spot. [spoiler/]

In Ending 1, she mentions that she's top of the class in drama, so I believe she was faking her emotions as a last ditch effort to save face. There's nothing redeemable about her, and much as some people might call that a one-sided villain, I don't think it's a big deal. Not every villain has to have a complex, sympathetic backstory. Sometimes all they need to be is an obstacle for the hero(es) to overcome. Some people really are just awful people by nature.

As for Iadakan, I don't think his death was too soon, but I do think it needed foreshadowing, like him feeling sick some days or something. He doesn't show up on the first day of school, so he could've called in sick then. Still, definitely needed foreshadowing. [/quote]


Actually during the painting destruction scene after he finishes you can see his legs shaking from exhaustion which could have been a foreshadowing of his bone cancer.

[himbothy]

Originally posted by Mister Dude:

Originally posted by LeventeKing:

Personally I like this lot more, since most characters are just legit one sided characters. Mia felt like she supposed to have a lot more behind her story, like being manipulated into doing Ben's dirty deeds, like legit felt like Mia was supposed to be a manipulated victim of Ben. Iadakan's death also felt so so so early? Like for me it did nothing on emotionally, yes he was good but if he died even later it would have been lot more better.

I also like what Rando, above my comment said, that Ben tries to manipulate Inco becoming like him, making him a terrible person while no one batting a eye on him. Mia should have realised that point that trying to fix Ben is not worth it and rans away.

I don't think Ben was manipulating Mia, I think that was just a lie she came up with on the spot. She was the one withholding his anti-psychotics and being physically abusive. Then when she's caught in the act with the whole school staring and muttering she's trying to think of a way out of the situation. It's only when someone in the crowd says "abusive" loud enough for her to hear that she latches onto it and makes something up on the spot. [spoiler/]

In Ending 1, she mentions that she's top of the class in drama, so I believe she was faking her emotions as a last ditch effort to save face. There's nothing redeemable about her, and much as some people might call that a one-sided villain, I don't think it's a big deal. Not every villain has to have a complex, sympathetic backstory. Sometimes all they need to be is an obstacle for the hero(es) to overcome. Some people really are just awful people by nature.

As for Iadakan, I don't think his death was too soon, but I do think it needed foreshadowing, like him feeling sick some days or something. He doesn't show up on the first day of school, so he could've called in sick then. Still, definitely needed foreshadowing. [/quote]

Honestly I think the whole Ben Mia situation perfectly reflects the MC Olvia story of E4 in polar opposite. Mia took Ben's anti psychotics away from him if not in an effort to fix him then in a misguided effort to "have a normal boyfriend". Ben and Mia are the E1 of their story line. She tried to fix him and when his psychosis manifested because of the absence of medication she probably would feel like the victim even if it was by her own hand. It was a good way of highlighting the correct choices of E4 Inco to let Oliva take the reigns and course correct her own life, with gentle nudging.
That's not to say however that Mia isn't manipulative in her own right, at her core she was a flawed person who was drawn to Ben because he had the power to shield her from her own poor decisions and consequences of her own actions.
As for Iadakan's death, we lose some people abruptly. It might not have been foreshadowed but hey, that happens.

[Overlord7895]

Originally posted by Mister Dude:

Originally posted by LeventeKing:

>Some people are under the impression that a one-dimensional villain is, by that very token, a poorly written villain. I disagree. A poorly written villain is a villain who does nothing but be evil arbitrarily. Mia's actions aren't arbitrary; they're a reflection of Olivia herself. Olivia has the capacity to be as manipulative and cruel as Mia if no one stands up to her. She's the anti-Olivia.

My man that is bad writing, unless you want to assert your Oxford level english literarcy over me with Ancient Greek level philosophy meaning, I would still be calling it bad writing. Especially how *hard* some of the dialouges are and sentences, the choices really made me question it, especially two standing out for me particullary (one for the bbq party and the other Mia bullying Olivia).

Well that's, like, your opinion, "my man." Not every villain needs to have a le heckin tragic backstory, unless you actually like superfluous Disney remakes like Cruella and Maleficient. Ultimately, they just need to serve their purpose, which is to be an obstacle for the hero(es) to overcome. Thinking every character needs to be deep and complex is pretentious. Sometimes the mechanics of narrative driven storytelling require efficiency and expediency. Making every character some exploration of philosophical or psychological themes does neither.

Personally, as someone who bought Wani after playing Snoot Game, I wasn't a fan of how Mia was written. This game did a lot different from Snoot, but the thing that most effected me in Snoot was the lesson it tried to teach about empathy and understanding. Anon's whole character arc in that game was to become more empathetic, to open up and try to understand the people around him, and Trish was the biggest example of his growth. In the bad endings, Trish remains an antagonist, openly mocking Anon when he runs into her. Even in ending 3, she's treated as a villain after what she did, and justifiably so. Ending 4 is the only ending where Anon has become mature and empathetic enough to understand why Trish acted the way she did, and came to realise that it was partially his own fault, allowing him to mend bridges with her at prom.

The way Trish was handled in Snoot is one of my favourite parts of that game, and I was hoping that the villain of Wani would have the same level of complexity. I was somewhat disappointed when Mia turned out to have basically zero character depth and, as you said, acted solely as an obstacle to the heroes rather than being an interesting character in her own right. I understand that the themes here are different and that an unsympathetic, one-dimensional villain is perfectly acceptable in storytelling, but I believe that the story could have been better with a villain with more depth. They don't need to fully redeem her and have her join the group like they did with Ben, but even just some more complex motivations would have gone a long way to making her more interesting. As-is, she's basically just a stereotypical mean girl who occasionally physically assaults people.

[KaeWhy]

Re: Mia, AFAIK there was a bit of development hell where her creator was a ♥♥♥♥ about how the devs could use her, so eventually they gave up, bought the rights to Mia and just stopped caring about giving her an arc. Oh well.

[Dude_84_Dude]

Originally posted by KaeWhy:

Re: Mia, AFAIK there was a bit of development hell where her creator was a ♥♥♥♥ about how the devs could use her, so eventually they gave up, bought the rights to Mia and just stopped caring about giving her an arc. Oh well.

That's interesting. It'd be neat to see a kind of "making of" documentary about how this game started with the original 4chan post of Olivia up to now. It's clear Olivia went through a lot of changes. Her final iteration looks a lot more feminine than the tomboyish looking one in the early stages.

Although I'm not personally bothered by Mia's one-dimensionality, it is annoying how she's handled in Ending 4 where she just walks out of Principal Scaler's office with no repercussions. It's like they needed an excuse to get her to the winter formal just so they could conveniently wrap up the loose ends all at once. Lazy story-telling logistics.

I also have ideas for how an Ending 1 Inco could've worked more believably than what we get, which is almost apropos of nothing.

[Thetagent]

Originally posted by Mister Dude:

That's interesting. It'd be neat to see a kind of "making of" documentary about how this game started with the original 4chan post of Olivia up to now. It's clear Olivia went through a lot of changes. Her final iteration looks a lot more feminine than the tomboyish looking one in the early stages.

There was a lot of petty drama throughout the game's development, resulting in a community-made "hit-piece" and the subsequent response from Cavemanon's founding members.

This KF post consolidates most of it: https://kiwifarms.st/threads/goodbye-volcano-high.71015/page-142#post-18091865

If you value your time and do not want to read through this 28K word behemoth, here is what I could surmise from skimming through it.

Snoot Game's reception attracted many ill-prepared, attention-seeking freeloaders onto Wani's original development team. This resulted in much e-drama and an original draft of the game described as "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ awful." The fact several members managed to salvage a well-received game out of, in their words, "the disaster that was the Wani project" is a miracle.

Ultimately, the lesson to be learned from this nonsense by any aspiring creators is to be protective of your passion-projects. Additionally, never, under any circumstances, use Discord.