Seek Tribute Spam solutions: ...halve the quality per order penalty, instead?

[Starwild]

There are quite a few things I'm enthusiastic to start writing about, suggesting, and finding out I'm actually confused or misinformed over!

I'm gonna start with this one:

Currently, Seek Tribute is too easy to abuse. I don't know what other or more drastic solutions might be necessary, and I don't even know the math behind Tribute Quality! But, nevertheless, I suspect that halving quality (rounded UP) per order beyond the first is a good, fast way to cut down its effectiveness.

Because of the way this would work, players would actually see no difference with a Quality of 3 or lower:
3 -> 2 -> 1,

whereas a Quality of 9 would decay to 1 by Order 5:
9 -> 5 -> 3 -> 2 -> 1.

Thus, a reasonable, common Quality of 6 or 5 would decay to 1 by Order 4.

In practice, in the later game this creates HARD diminishing returns for intensely focusing on Quality and then spamming Seek Tribute all the way through, as well as making an Order 1 Seek Tribute by far the most valuable. A strong focus on raising Quality would shift to becoming a strategy for ensuring that your first Order can be freed up.

[Indestructibirb]

Originally posted by Xuande:

The common suggestion is to do -4 per slot (as 2009 SI apparently did) and even that doesn't solve the problem where early game Tribute 1s aren't that much worse than 2s, making Crown of Bureaucracy such a smothering option.

Short of a rework of the mechanic (either Tribute Quality or Orders) that I doubt we're getting, I don't see a better option than to combine harsher decay alongside some form of CoB nerf. The problem isn't really players with 6 orders on high quality spamming Seek Tribute, its how quickly one can reach that point so that the game can be won or lost shortly after.

Yeah it is quite the dilemma. What if we had another resource, "tribute fatigue" where seeking extra tributes carries over to other turns? This would mean you can get more tribute if you need it quickly for some reason, but if you do it consistently for multiple turns you start getting less. This would keep some of the current strategy in but would nerf spamming it the whole game?

[Starwild]

Originally posted by Xuande:

The common suggestion is to do -4 per slot (as 2009 SI apparently did) and even that doesn't solve the problem where early game Tribute 1s aren't that much worse than 2s, making Crown of Bureaucracy such a smothering option.

Short of a rework of the mechanic (either Tribute Quality or Orders) that I doubt we're getting, I don't see a better option than to combine harsher decay alongside some form of CoB nerf. The problem isn't really players with 6 orders on high quality spamming Seek Tribute, its how quickly one can reach that point so that the game can be won or lost shortly after.

Ooh, my next idea was a CoB nerf which I think and hope is elegant!

Basically, it shouldn't stack with either 1 or 2 level 4 Powers. So, perhaps excluding Pseudomonarchia, once you have 3 (or 4) Orders it goes dormant.

This limits the number of extra Orders it grants over a game relative to how it functions now, while maintaining the exact same spirit.

Granted, this is still incredibly powerful for starting fast, and hard, and maybe the nerf won't be sufficient, but if both these things are applied then MANY other options will have to be considered by players looking to optimize their playstyles.

Further, if in addition to the above another Crown (or an Amulet?) is modified to allow Level 6 powers to provide an additional Order (rather than only at Level 4), then the CoB will immediately have a competitor.

[Starwild]

Okies, went over the suggested Relics tier list in the guides, and unless anybody has disagreements with the Crown of the Administrator being functionally useless, I'd say that rather than trying to rework it for PoP Prestige gain perhaps it deserves to become a viable counter/alternative to the CoB?

I can imagine that a total re-imagining of a Crown might not be on the table, but I still wanna propose it as providing a playstyle that encourages focusing on 1 or 2 Powers instead of spreading out.
I'm... not sure this would work when it's evident that some Powers are more equal than others, though. It might just become the Crown of Charisma+Prophecy, and if that's a bad thing then I retract my proposal. :D

[Strill]

Originally posted by Xuande:

The common suggestion is to do -4 per slot (as 2009 SI apparently did) and even that doesn't solve the problem where early game Tribute 1s aren't that much worse than 2s, making Crown of Bureaucracy such a smothering option.

Short of a rework of the mechanic (either Tribute Quality or Orders) that I doubt we're getting, I don't see a better option than to combine harsher decay alongside some form of CoB nerf. The problem isn't really players with 6 orders on high quality spamming Seek Tribute, its how quickly one can reach that point so that the game can be won or lost shortly after.

What if multiple seek tributes also gave a cumulative -1 token keep? That would drop the income from seek tribute spam much harder. Early game crown of bureaucracy would still be good in general, but not really relevant for an economy strategy.

Furthermore, once seek tribute spam is nerfed, they just need to balance prestige income from dueling and elocution, and then economy strategies will also involve interacting with other players to rank up.

At that point, I think the game will be in a much better place.

[Senethro]

Orders --> Tribute --> Skills --> More Orders is too much of a virtuous circle. Increasing the importance of rank might do something for it.

Or it might just make everyone take Crown of Authority or Marquis Amulet.

[Starwild]

Originally posted by Xuande:

Marquis Amulet is secretly garbage at the moment, see this thread for why: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1893810/discussions/0/4292564952449171611/

Crown of Authority is at a decent power level, I'd like to see many of the nonviable relics brought up to where they're part of 3-slot viable alternatives to it.

Yes, I'd read that thread and it's a damn good catch! :D

Personally, I'm fine with SOME relics remaining as they are, and being at least mostly nonviable, as long as they have the slimmest chance of entering someone's niche pet strategy or if they become nonviable for most Archfiends but not for one or two.

For example, assuming other more serious issues are addressed, I see RoCollector finding niche value in PoP-poor games or hyper-sedentary playstyles, and I see RoCommand serving well for Wrath-poor expansionist builds.
My problem is with how I don't actually have to think about any of that, because I want min. 4 in (basically) all Powers, and being sedentary is less challenging than NOT spending Orders almost entirely on economy.

I'll mention that my current pet relic setup for Beelzebub is AoProphecy+(resistance ring), because regardless of meta it's friggin' sensible. I can keep Hell's Maw up with room for Destruction, for starters, but my basic assumption is that Know Your Enemy means it's good to know who bought what from turn 1, and it's good to resist Augury. I LOVE that.
(Access to another Power closer to 4 is great, too, of course.)

[Starwild]

I should also mention that I am by no means playing amazingly, nor am I fully in on The Discourse, and I really meant my first sentence in the thread: I expect to be confused or misinformed about a lot.

I expect to, at any point, have it pointed out to me that something I thought was terrible is good, or vice versa, or anything in between.

[Starwild]

Neat. :D

Most of my running async games are ones I started before I understood what's up, and sadly now I look at them knowing I'm lagging somewhat or far behind. I'm still playing, buuut given how long they take in the first place it often takes the wind outta my sails.

It's even more unfortunate that I just abandoned one game I actually started out liking, possibly my very first async actually, because using Belial's Art I pincered a Mammon together with Astaroth on turn 1 aaand I'm pretty sure he ragequit immediately. With spite. He ran the timer out for several days before he got booted. ...couldn't figure out where to report that, btw.

All my other asyncs are Beelz, and half of those are with AoOpulence instead of Prophecy because, as I said, I hadn't known what's up. It was a REALLY cool experience to notice why I wanna shift my strategy, though!

[TearQuILA]

Spite quit aside (poor sportsmanship should theoretically be included in some sort of rating system to prevent people engaging in retributive or ignorant reflex responses) I don't quite understand why certain game actions that are literally available to everyone (ie seek tribute and associated increase action via improved powers) are somehow imbalanced? Seek tribute is a dead action compared to alternatives like loot the vault v2 onward (for example) and is enhanced by Mammon's base power contract.

The complexity of the game is significant. Is there truly certainty that seek tribute is really easily abused and just not just the simplest method of meeting game conditions? I genuinely don't know. Like others have said, not in on the meta, i just can't conceive seek tribute as being that debilitating. If someone gets to 4, 5 or 6 actions then... that cost them heavily in actions imo?

[TearQuILA]

Case in point: I just played a (first random non irl friend multiplayer) game where the "lead" and "second" player on prestige points played the tribute passive approach. Seemed a sure thing but I negotiated a truce with the other non-AI player who was coming last in the final three rounds of the game before they summoned a Titan who managed to take Pandemonium and secure them the win.

Hardly imbalanced at all imo when the passive player's lack of care lost them a clear lead because they had no defence on the board or alternative means like rituals to circumvent the last placed player from winning.

Again. My first game in the meta so maybe I am misreading things but it seems a lot to me like this game is surprisingly balanced for all its complexity.

[Mr.Gray]

Originally posted by TearQuILA:

I don't quite understand why certain game actions that are literally available to everyone (ie seek tribute and associated increase action via improved powers) are somehow imbalanced?

it is unbalanced compared to any oher action and leads to single possible way to play a game if you want a win i.e. 20 turns for tribune until you get 6 order slots and crash everyone (until they spam tribute as well). Everything else does not matter because at 20 turns mark you are bascially invincible to any rutials of players who trying to be active and can afford titan to attack Pandemonium + 2 strategems so it do not need support to do so and Titan to protect your stronghold. There is only single counterplay - 20 turns off tribute (i.e. symmetrical approach).
So a game about schemes, diplomacy and legions degenerate to single button for 20 tirns. Translate it into assync game - 20 days of doing NOTHING. It does not matter what archfiend you pick or relics you choose. If you do not spam tribute you will loose to someone who does and knows how to use it (i.e. counterplay yout possible moves to compromise his economy).

[Starwild]

Originally posted by TearQuILA:

Hardly imbalanced at all imo when the passive player's lack of care lost them a clear lead because they had no defence on the board or alternative means like rituals to circumvent the last placed player from winning.

If I am born with access to one million dollars US equivalent, and then in thinking that good finances means saving *every single penny* I decide to never invest in good food, health insurance, or medication, then I might be in trouble.

That doesn't change the fact that being born with one million dollars US equivalent gives me a MASSIVE edge over, say, someone who actually understands good finances but was born poor, experiencing health issues without the cash to adapt to them early.

The problem - the imbalance - exists where the obviously preferable circumstance is to simply be born with access to money which affords you food and healthcare ASAP. In game terms, such as if these were pre-game choices, it doesn't matter that a careless player can still screw the strategy up, what matters is how ideal this single one is for a player who's paying attention.

So, say you're a player who isn't careless and you intend to win a match, no holds barred: it's fairly nonnegotiable that you're best off playing CoB, and farming via Seek Tribute for level 4 Powers. Maybe you take a very near PoP if you can, or farm a few striders if they're close, but you mostly tighten your finances and remain focused. Maybe you accept a Demand, maybe you reject it.
Within a very short time this will give you Rituals to use, and a developed Ritual Table, Orders, and Tribute to use them with. This will give you the Backrooms for wider Bazaar options, and optimal access to Tribute for getting the first Titans that become available.

All of this is nice and cool, maybe this is just how the game is meant to be played, right?
Well, it's not anywhere near turn 50 for a "normal" game and you now have access to means to end the game one way or another within several turns, and if you don't use them somebody else will.

[TearQuILA]

Counterpoint, dip message, "hey guys Belial* is spamming CoB tribute and has no defences let's just spam them with demands." -> at the same time dip message to Belial "Hey Belial the other players are ganging up on you because of CoB tribute strat wanna stage a canton vendetta swap with me so you can keep your cash rather than paying up?" meanwhile just pump loot the vaults v2 and above and you rake in what Belial is trying to hoard; chain with other players for best effect. Suddenly Belial either spends tribute to reduce effectiveness of loot the vaults and foregoes the strategic path to the fastest "farmed" level 4 powers or they are just financing everyone else.

That would be playing within the actual scheming and diplomacy side of things proper rather than just relying on inbuilt game mechanics alone. Actually negotiate to even the playing field, hedge bets by ingratiating yourself with them in case the others don't keep up with the regular demands and you undermine the degeneration to single button spam.

Also you end up with enough vendetta's for all three other opponents (in a 4 person game) to declare a blood feud each before the 20 turn mark anyway. "All of this is nice and cool, maybe this is just how the game is meant to be played, right?" becomes a bit unimaginative for an argument because it sounds like there is no thought being given to creative diplomatic methods to counter.

*or whoever has the CoB or fourth slot starting point

[Drakken]

Two seek tributes orders per turn, hard max, and with a decrease in quality in the second one.

Then you need to do something else with the rest of your orders - including finding plots.

[Starwild]

Originally posted by Drakken:

Two seek tributes orders per turn, hard max, and with a decrease in quality in the second one.

Then you need to do something else with the rest of your orders - including finding plots.

Honestly, I'll probably just take that too, yeah.