Why excommunication is not tense.

[Strill]

It's very simple. Once you're excommunicated, the only way to win is through legion combat. All out of legions? Only junk legions remaining? You lost. Period. No alternatives.

Now, if the game rewarded you for keeping at the max legion count, things might be a different story, but it actually punishes you pretty severely. Vendettas are one of the highest risk, lowest reward prestige gathering methods in the game, and require an inordinate number of order slots. Often ten times the order slots of a dueling or elocution strategy. Even worse, there's plenty of events that actively punish you for keeping many standing legions, such as the angel event.

For excommunication to be tense, either the game should expect and reward all players for having maxed out legions, or there needs to be some alternative way of winning or returning to the conclave that doesn't involve legions.

[FOTCH]

I guess controlling all the legions with just a single order is a pretty nice feature to consider. And bazaar probably should never run out of legions - just reshuffle deck with currently in-game unused legions / praetors

[FOTCH]

Cuz I've just noticed how poor stat boost amulets look in compare to crown of bureaucracy ))

[水芹 Cress]

Originally posted by ФOTCН:

Cuz I've just noticed how poor stat boost amulets look in compare to crown of bureaucracy ))

crown of bureaucracy Is so Powerful even if you're going for other strategies it almost seems to be your go to one. Not saying it should necessarily be nerfed just that other options should be increased in power

[Trappist]

I just won a game by excommunicating every other player at the last minute by ritual framing. Kinda borked tbh.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by Strill:

It's very simple. Once you're excommunicated, the only way to win is through legion combat. All out of legions? Only junk legions remaining? You lost. Period. No alternatives.

That's why you don't want to be excommunicated. Unless you want to.

Originally posted by Strill:

Now, if the game rewarded you for keeping at the max legion count, things might be a different story, but it actually punishes you pretty severely. Vendettas are one of the highest risk, lowest reward prestige gathering methods in the game, and require an inordinate number of order slots. Often ten times the order slots of a dueling or elocution strategy.

Vendetta doesn't have to be for Prestige only. It could be about taking Places of Power, destroying enemy Legions or reducing your enemy's territory so much that you can assault the Stronghold and eliminate a player from the game.

Originally posted by Strill:

Even worse, there's plenty of events that actively punish you for keeping many standing legions, such as the angel event.

Really? Angelic Host Incursion will kill a single Legion, so in this case you're better off having more than one Legion and feeding it to the Host.

Or do you mean Great Unholy Crusade? It benefits you from having more than a single Legion, because you can send your worst Legion and it may even return stronger.

In either case having many Legions is actually better than having just your starting Legion.

Originally posted by Strill:

For excommunication to be tense, either the game should expect and reward all players for having maxed out legions, or there needs to be some alternative way of winning or returning to the conclave that doesn't involve legions.

Agreed. Having the option to buy your way back from Excommunication should be a thing (either with Tokens or Prestige). Maybe make it so that Excommunication lasts for 3 turns or so AFTER you pay? That way there is still some window for other players to act, but you're not literally stuck with no options and hoping for an event card that may or many not come.

[水芹 Cress]

Originally posted by Trappist:

I just won a game by excommunicating every other player at the last minute by ritual framing. Kinda borked tbh.

I was able to win a game where I was losing on prestige but I had by far and above the strongest army as I was powering through all game. Turn limit was 40. Andromedus was beating The one currently ahead of prestige and I attacked the pandemonium he sent me a message saying good game but he was powerless to stop me in time. So I just systematically destroyed everyone.

I think I was the only one who took Crown of bureaucracy. In single player I've played matches trying to power my economy up with and without the starting plus one to orders and the difference is quite staggering. Maybe other combinations of artifacts could give set bonuses when used together To give you plus one to orders

[holy-death]

Originally posted by 水芹 Cress:

I think I was the only one who took Crown of bureaucracy. In single player I've played matches trying to power my economy up with and without the starting plus one to orders and the difference is quite staggering. Maybe other combinations of artifacts could give set bonuses when used together To give you plus one to orders

Indeed. Having 3 Orders instead of 2 is a big game changer that can snowball really fast, provided you can get Prestige fast to level up your Tribute gain. After that it is smooth sailing and nobody can really do much against it.

I guess you could somewhat match that by having the Amulet of Nobility and the Ring of Spectacle. If you take Andromalius you can earn more Prestige from Duels to farm for higher ranks to get even more Tribute and gain more and more orders that way, while retaining your ability to farm Prestige from duels.

Or take the Crown of Intolerance and declare a Blood Feud after a single Vendetta. If you're strong enough to take down a Stronghold in a single turn, this can be a surprise killing blow, and with more than just one Legion you could have everyone killed that way.

But you need to somehow get there against people who have the Crown of Bureaucracy, meaning it is going to be tougher to match the potential of that extra starting Order until your Legions are strong enough to make use of the Crown of Intolerance.

By the way, I think they removed the Crown that gave you the title of Prince? I seem to recall there was one in the demo.

[Strill]

Originally posted by holy-death:

Originally posted by Strill:

It's very simple. Once you're excommunicated, the only way to win is through legion combat. All out of legions? Only junk legions remaining? You lost. Period. No alternatives.

That's why you don't want to be excommunicated. Unless you want to.

That's not how excommunication was designed though. It was meant to be a high-intensity, high-stakes do-or-die moment. In other words, you're supposed to still have a chance at winning.

Originally posted by Strill:

Now, if the game rewarded you for keeping at the max legion count, things might be a different story, but it actually punishes you pretty severely. Vendettas are one of the highest risk, lowest reward prestige gathering methods in the game, and require an inordinate number of order slots. Often ten times the order slots of a dueling or elocution strategy.

Vendetta doesn't have to be for Prestige only. It could be about taking Places of Power, destroying enemy Legions or reducing your enemy's territory so much that you can assault the Stronghold and eliminate a player from the game.

If that player wasn't bothering you, then that was a tremendous waste of resources that just makes it easier for your opponents to win. A passive nearby opponent just acts as a buffer to absorb enemy aggression. They're basically an advantage for you.

If that player was specifically harassing you, however, then sure, eliminating them is all well and good once you're established, but if you're still developing your rank and order slots, it's a tremendous waste of resources that will put you much further behind other players with a more economic focus. (With the exception of capturing easy PoPs. They often have some decent stat bonuses, and the early boost of prestige can be important for boosting tribute income)

Imagine you spend 10 orders on moving legions, equipping relics, and trying to get vendettas. Consider that that could've earned you between 30-50 tribute tokens. An entire vault's worth! Think of how many extra powers, top-tier legions, and game-changing artifacts that could've gotten you for when it actually matters. Moreover, think of how many more Order slots and increased tribute quality you could have from more points into your powers. 30 tribute tokens invested early on towards increasing your economy can quickly snowball into an additional 60 or even 90 tribute tokens down the line.

Originally posted by Strill:

Even worse, there's plenty of events that actively punish you for keeping many standing legions, such as the angel event.

Really? Angelic Host Incursion will kill a single Legion, so in this case you're better off having more than one Legion and feeding it to the Host.

Or do you mean Great Unholy Crusade? It benefits you from having more than a single Legion, because you can send your worst Legion and it may even return stronger.

In either case having many Legions is actually better than having just your starting Legion.

Tribute is the name of the game. It's how you get a stronger military in order to capture or defend pandaemonium, it's how you get more powers to gain prestige, it's how you get more artifacts and powers to counter enemies and stop them from winning, and most importantly, it's how you get more tribute. Why in the world would I want to waste my precious tribute and order slots (which are also tribute), on legions that some event is just going to kill? Better to have only my starting legion, so that it just comes right back with no tribute loss. Every point of tribute spent on improving your economy early on is paid back 10-fold or more by the end of the game.

Just to illustrate the importance of snowballing your economy, in my latest game, it's turn 21, and I've got 6 order slots, Prince rank, and I just bought the beast to capture pandaemonium.

[Trappist]

Although excommunicating everyone at the last minute was hilarious to me, I suspect the other players weren't having too much fun. I think that framing people and causing them to be excommunicated is hilarious and should stay in the game, but there needs to either be more risk involved or a very severe drawback.

Maybe framing a player into excommunication should be timed, and after 5 turns, the Conclave figures out the error and excommunicates the framer instead.

This still wouldn't solve the problem of just exco top player on turn 55, but it'd be a start...

[holy-death]

Originally posted by Strill:

That's not how excommunication was designed though. It was meant to be a high-intensity, high-stakes do-or-die moment. In other words, you're supposed to still have a chance at winning.

Sure. Which is probably why it shouldn't be an event people can vote for.

Originally posted by Strill:

If that player wasn't bothering you, then that was a tremendous waste of resources that just makes it easier for your opponents to win. A passive nearby opponent just acts as a buffer to absorb enemy aggression. They're basically an advantage for you.

I am merely stating what Vendettas are for. They have more uses than just Prestige accumulation. Having high Prestige is great, provided you live long enough to make use of it. Which isn't a given.

Originally posted by Strill:

Imagine you spend 10 orders on moving legions, equipping relics, and trying to get vendettas.

10 Orders? That's a lot. Try 5 or 6. This is where many people make a mistake: they don't factor is how highly strategic the game is. Moving around with your armies isn't good if it doesn't accomplish a goal. Sometimes buying a Legion and moving it once can be enough if it puts your opponents in check.

Originally posted by Strill:

Consider that that could've earned you between 30-50 tribute tokens. An entire vault's worth! Think of how many extra powers, top-tier legions, and game-changing artifacts that could've gotten you for when it actually matters. Moreover, think of how many more Order slots and increased tribute quality you could have from more points into your powers. 30 tribute tokens invested early on towards increasing your economy can quickly snowball into an additional 60 or even 90 tribute tokens down the line.

Sure. If you're left alone. But when everybody is stealing/making demands from you it is not that great. And don't let me tell you about events that make it impossible to gather Tribute. That one is really rough when you rely solely on money-making via Orders.

Originally posted by Strill:

Why in the world would I want to waste my precious tribute and order slots (which are also tribute), on legions that some event is just going to kill? Better to have only my starting legion, so that it just comes right back with no tribute loss. Every point of tribute spent on improving your economy early on is paid back 10-fold or more by the end of the game.

If you don't have military power whatsoever, then you're a sitting duck to anyone. If people let you build your economy unhindered until the end of the game, then it's their fault for not taking advantage from when they had the chance to do so.

Originally posted by Strill:

Just to illustrate the importance of snowballing your economy, in my latest game, it's turn 21, and I've got 6 order slots, Prince rank, and I just bought the beast to capture pandaemonium.

Give it time. When people get more experienced to press you more early on (especially when you don't have that many Orders or Legions to stop them), it won't be that easy to grow fat on Tribute and power through everything.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Originally posted by Strill:

That's not how excommunication was designed though. It was meant to be a high-intensity, high-stakes do-or-die moment. In other words, you're supposed to still have a chance at winning.

Because everyone is trying to win but only one can succeed, any path to victory is going to include the possibility of reaching a state where victory is impossible. The fact that you can get excommunicated and then have no hope of turning it around into a victory is just one such state. That doesn't mean that there's a problem with excommunication, it means that everyone who plays needs to come to terms with the fact that sometimes they will lose the game.

A few days ago I was playing a SP game, and focusing on my plan for victory, when I got the notification that soon the conclave would be voting on which archfiend to excommunicate. I didn't know that it would be me, but I was in the lead so I knew that it was very likely. So, I abandoned all of my plans and went on a buying spree on the bazaar. I had three turns before the vote (iirc), and all I did was focus on improving my military, in terms of legions, praetors, artifacts of war, and seeking/consolidating tribute as needed to make those assets mine. The vote came up, and sure enough I was voted out. Then, prepared as I was, I conquered all of the enemy strongholds, one at a time, while defending mine, and won the game.

My point is not that pulling yourself out of an excommunication is an easy thing to do, but rather that it is possible if you spot the warning signs and manage to prepare for that eventuality. If you are excommunicated, and didn't expect it, and didn't prepare for it, then yeah, you might be in a situation where you cannot hope to recover - but you aren't in that position because recovery from excommunication is never possible; rather, recovery is impossible in your case as a result of the choices that you made up to that point.

The game shouldn't be trying to save players from their mistakes.

[Strill]

Originally posted by holy-death:

If you don't have military power whatsoever, then you're a sitting duck to anyone. If people let you build your economy unhindered until the end of the game, then it's their fault for not taking advantage from when they had the chance to do so.

See, that's where you're wrong. If you're going for an economic strategy, it's all the easier to buy better legions than your opponent, and to defend the few cantons you have. It also makes you a less valuable opponent, since it takes your opponent much more to capture from you.

Originally posted by Strill:

Just to illustrate the importance of snowballing your economy, in my latest game, it's turn 21, and I've got 6 order slots, Prince rank, and I just bought the beast to capture pandaemonium.

Give it time. When people get more experienced to press you more early on (especially when you don't have that many Orders or Legions to stop them), it won't be that easy to grow fat on Tribute and power through everything.

I have another game where I was hard-pressed and harassed as Mammon, but because of my economic advantage, and good placement on defensive cantons, I'd just buy another legion and they weren't able to kill any of mine, so I took no tribute losses, which is what actually matters.

It's now turn 30, I have six order slots, Duke rank, just fireballed my opponent's strongest legion, purchased the Beast, and have secured a vendetta on the player with cantons around pandaemonium.

[Strill]

Originally posted by tempest.of.emptiness:

Originally posted by Strill:

That's not how excommunication was designed though. It was meant to be a high-intensity, high-stakes do-or-die moment. In other words, you're supposed to still have a chance at winning.

Because everyone is trying to win but only one can succeed, any path to victory is going to include the possibility of reaching a state where victory is impossible. The fact that you can get excommunicated and then have no hope of turning it around into a victory is just one such state. That doesn't mean that there's a problem with excommunication, it means that everyone who plays needs to come to terms with the fact that sometimes they will lose the game.

No, that's just not correct. Every aspect of the game is designed around having numerous counters that can change the outcome of a turn unless absolutely all of them are accounted for. Excommunication is the exception to this rule, where a lack of legions is a hard loss.

A few days ago I was playing a SP game, and focusing on my plan for victory, when I got the notification that soon the conclave would be voting on which archfiend to excommunicate. I didn't know that it would be me, but I was in the lead so I knew that it was very likely. So, I abandoned all of my plans and went on a buying spree on the bazaar. I had three turns before the vote (iirc), and all I did was focus on improving my military, in terms of legions, praetors, artifacts of war, and seeking/consolidating tribute as needed to make those assets mine. The vote came up, and sure enough I was voted out. Then, prepared as I was, I conquered all of the enemy strongholds, one at a time, while defending mine, and won the game.

My point is not that pulling yourself out of an excommunication is an easy thing to do, but rather that it is possible if you spot the warning signs and manage to prepare for that eventuality. If you are excommunicated, and didn't expect it, and didn't prepare for it, then yeah, you might be in a situation where you cannot hope to recover - but you aren't in that position because recovery from excommunication is never possible; rather, recovery is impossible in your case as a result of the choices that you made up to that point.

The game shouldn't be trying to save players from their mistakes.

That's just not how the game works in any other context. There are all manner of artifacts, praetors, stratagems, and rituals that can completely upend a combat result, and in every case, the game gives you a substantial warning, along with many ways to counter or undo your opponent's plans.

[holy-death]

Originally posted by Strill:

See, that's where you're wrong. If you're going for an economic strategy, it's all the easier to buy better legions than your opponent, and to defend the few cantons you have. It also makes you a less valuable opponent, since it takes your opponent much more to capture from you.

Isn't everyone "going for an economic strategy" in a way though? Because unlocking more Orders as fast as possible and rising through the ranks is vital to everyone. The difference between having 3 orders instead of 2 alone is huge game changer. And the more orders you have, the easier it is to get more (provided you're efficient with them).

[Strill]

Originally posted by holy-death:

Originally posted by Strill:

See, that's where you're wrong. If you're going for an economic strategy, it's all the easier to buy better legions than your opponent, and to defend the few cantons you have. It also makes you a less valuable opponent, since it takes your opponent much more to capture from you.

Isn't everyone "going for an economic strategy" in a way though? Because unlocking more Orders as fast as possible and rising through the ranks is vital to everyone. The difference between having 3 orders instead of 2 alone is huge game changer. And the more orders you have, the easier it is to get more (provided you're efficient with them).

You say that, but I constantly have to argue with people how it's a waste of resources to use vendettas that take many orders to complete, or to buy excess legions that will be killed by events.

You can gain prestige from vendettas and legion combat, but it's incrediby cost-inefficient.