Praetor Duel - Cancel move seems OP

[Beanchilla]

This seems to end the duel every time. Is there a counter for this move or is it just a instant win?

[Starwild]

I'm fairly certain, but am in the process of studying these very things, that the Cancel moves actually are only unique in canceling their own suit.

E.g. the Seal or Repudiation is an Orb Technique which thus inherently cancels Serpent Techniques, and is inherently canceled by Skull Techniques with a priority going to the rock-paper-scissors over the Seal's effect.
Thus the only interesting effect it has is in canceling other Orbs, and I completely don't yet know how it interacts with another Seal.

I am not yet sure. But this is my so far disorganized understanding.

[holy-death]

Originalmente postado por Xuande:

Dueling would be more interesting if Charisma wasn't the best thing to be doing for most characters and builds. Because most good players have 4+ charisma by Turn 10 (even Turn 4-5 in some cases), duels that resolve tend to be a bribe war where the praetors are secondary.

Charisma wouldn't be that much of a problem if Tribute was less abundant. This way you would really have to count your coppers before deciding how much you can afford spend on the bribe versus collecting money to buy something else (assuming it is not just a skill level up).

[Starwild]

Originalmente postado por Starwild:

[...] the Cancel moves actually are only unique in canceling their own suit.

E.g. the Seal or Repudiation is an Orb Technique which thus inherently cancels Serpent Techniques, and is inherently canceled by Skull Techniques with a priority going to the rock-paper-scissors over the Seal's effect. [...]

Just tested this in a duel:

Gusion's Crippling Strike (Skull, 4; cancels techniques) was itself canceled by Xuul's Splintering Parry (Serpent, 1; no special effect), and the Parry remained in play normally.

Because I was testing things in SP but didn't want needless loading I did bribe the arbiter, though it appears Gusion would've won anyway: At level 4, he overpowered Xuul at level 2 + 1 for her Technique, and gained a further 5 for Charisma for a total of 9.
9, I discovered through rigorous calculations, is greater than 3 - he emerged victorious.

Originalmente postado por holy-death:

Originalmente postado por Xuande:

Dueling would be more interesting if Charisma wasn't the best thing to be doing for most characters and builds. Because most good players have 4+ charisma by Turn 10 (even Turn 4-5 in some cases), duels that resolve tend to be a bribe war where the praetors are secondary.

Charisma wouldn't be that much of a problem if Tribute was less abundant. This way you would really have to count your coppers before deciding how much you can afford spend on the bribe versus collecting money to buy something else (assuming it is not just a skill level up).

If Tribute were less abundant across the board but the benefit of bribery isn't reduced, I think that'll have a different effect from what you anticipate. The cost for every Praetor will be proportionately greater due to deflation, and I suspect that bribery wars will become tighter but no less tense, or overwhelming to results.

This isn't a substantiated opinion yet, but perhaps if the bonus from bribery were Cha/2 rounded down, with a successful +0 bribe counting as a tiebreaker, we'd be getting somewhere. A bonus of +2 for Charisma 4-5 would be way more tolerable, and would require far more sophistication to make sure that it counts.

[holy-death]

Originalmente postado por Starwild:

This isn't a substantiated opinion yet, but perhaps if the bonus from bribery were Cha/2 rounded down, with a successful +0 bribe counting as a tiebreaker, we'd be getting somewhere. A bonus of +2 for Charisma 4-5 would be way more tolerable, and would require far more sophistication to make sure that it counts.

Agreed. It would also feed into the manual searching-build that is related to Charisma skill, which is another way of boosting dueling power of a Praetor.

[Starwild]

Originalmente postado por Xuande:

Its already possible to overcome bribery in a build focused around manuscripts. [...]

I won't try to check my reasoning right now, but my intuition's telling me that a demonstration of the real problem lies with Charisma build vs. Charisma build, where a full +6 swings fights too drastically.

I have incomplete thoughts, will get to those too.

[Beanchilla]

I need a whole tutorial on this stuff honestly. Maybe I'll crack the encyclopedia later but I am lost haha.

[Beanchilla]

Any guide on how bribing is impactful? What does it change about the duel exactly?

[Starwild]

Originalmente postado por Beanchilla:

I need a whole tutorial on this stuff honestly. Maybe I'll crack the encyclopedia later but I am lost haha.

Unfortunately, a lot in the Encyclopedia is presently very unclear. As for a guide, I can't make promises but I'm working on something.

Originalmente postado por Beanchilla:

Any guide on how bribing is impactful? What does it change about the duel exactly?

The shortest answer which I hope will be clear is that if you succeed at your bribe - meaning your bribe is greater in total Tribute than your opponent's - then your minimum damage rises from just your Praetor's level to its level + your Charisma, and also if you win the bribe then your opponent can't do the same.

To elaborate a bit:

If you have a level 3 Praetor, and you have 2 Charisma, then with a successful bribe you're starting at 5 damage instead of 3.

This has one major direct type of impact, and one major indirect type.

The direct impact is that 5 damage will overcome 4 damage, even through things like cancellation of Techniques. If your opponent's Praetor has a level of 2, and cancels your Technique while adding a damage of 2, that's still less than your 5. Of course, if they don't cancel your Technique then you'll be in an even better position.

The indirect impact is that if you win the bribe then that inherently means your opponent has not. Hypothetically, even if your opponent's rocking a Charisma 6, it still won't be applied as a bonus on the duel. You only need a Charisma of 1 to be able to prevent the very massive impact of a successful bribe by a high-Charisma rival, but in practice that can get way more expensive than is worth the effort.

Edit:

All of this doesn't contradict the impact of the two dueling Rituals, Andro's Vanity's Anointed (+2 damage) and the Goblet of the Traitor's Anointed of Ash (+3 damage).
If you know that either of these are in play, or are using them yourself, then it's important to know that also they aren't affected by Technique cancellation.