My time in hell and why it was boring

[Kaiser der goldenen Sonne]

First i wanna say that i really like the game concept and setting. As a fan of the new Dune game, i liked the idea of having a game which is more slow and strategical, but still has a similar grip to it.
I was forwarned by my friend, that this game is more for passionate players... but let´s be real here.

In the current state, the game is just to painfully slow, even for me as a chess player. You need atleast 3 actions per turn to really do anything meaningful, because almost everything needs an action to do it.

The prices for everything are really to high. I spend most of my time gathering tribute with the +1 tribute ring or demand tribute from the weaker AI´s and i could only afford 2 units + 1 cheap book... in 20 turns!?! A free tribute action per turn + price adjustments would really do alot here. There is no fun in having 7 turns in a 20 turns demo, where you just sitting around, taxing your demon poulation like crazy.
The tribute randomisation was also pretty abnoxious. Most things need Secret and i almost never got any secret tribute markers. Things like that can pretty easy ruin a match, when you play PvP.

And then you have the "Auction" mentality of the basaar. This feature i absolutly hated the most. I would understand, that someone can intercept, when you buy an artifact or a titan, something that is really strong or gives good bonuses.

But intercepting every purchase??? I literally needed 3 attempts to purchase a 1 lvl unit, because the AI haggled like crazy. That was 1,5 turns wasted to buy a unit with 0/5/0 stats in the end. Next time the same thing with a lvl 2 unit. I hated this feature so much, i just wanted to instantly close the game, but instead ate my whole chocolate bar to get through the demo.

Unit card design looks amazing, but the lvl 1 units are almost to weak to do anything meaningful. I also would randomize the units and items available every 5-7 turns to keep the bazaar fresh and interesting.

I also hope there will be a pool of 50+ creatures, next to the titans. So later on, after release, people don´t just buy the best meta units out every game. With 50+ you have alot of options in your builds every match (not like me, which ended up with only melee effective units, because the AI buyed every other one :/)

Since this game uses only game art + different stats for the units, i think this wouldn´t be alot of afford to do, but it would help the game alot in the long run and every match would feel different from the other ones.

The rituals looked good, but i couldn´t afford a single one, otherwise i couldn´t buy anything from the basaar.

Praetors and a gladiator arena are such a cool idea, but they was also super expensive.
I think factions should get a weak starter Praetor, which can´t be attached to your starter legion. That would also stop the permanent, non-consequential diplomacy abuse from Archfiends in the other corner of the map.

Diplomacy is basic stuff, worked good for the demo.

"Plans" ranged from "oh i could do that" to "no way i ever can achieve that". That rebalancing would be good in this case too.

So what about bugs and technic stuff? In the demo i never could intercept a buy attempt from the AI, i think thats a bug in the demo, but was the only one i encountered.

Perfomance was really poor so, stuttering and lagging now and then in every turn conclusion + the menus where Archfiends are animated.

There was also no option to speed up the turn conclusion, which really should be a thing in this game.

Soundtrack should also be alot more cooler in the final release. If you have to wait alot and/ or play a slow game in general, the soundtrack should be really good and enjoyable.

Otherwise you just mute it and go to your spotify playlist :S

Thank you for spending your time to read my thoughts about the game. I hope the devs can do alot about the features above, because then this game could have a bright future. The setting is dope and i still have high hopes for the game.

Would also really like to know, how you guys think about my experience and claims in the review :)

Best regards
Emperor of Suns

[Gut]

The game is slow -by design- and is meant to be like this. It is a patient game, as indicated in the tutorial.

If you find it boring then indeed it is not a game for you, no problem with that. But criticizing it for its qualities is not very relevant to be honest.

[Kaiser der goldenen Sonne]

Originally posted by Gut:

The game is slow -by design- and is meant to be like this. It is a patient game, as indicated in the tutorial.

If you find it boring then indeed it is not a game for you, no problem with that. But criticizing it for its qualities is not very relevant to be honest.

First, it would be really nice to make posts, where you can see through the lines that someone has read the whole review and not only the first part. Just mentioning a single thing, when someone took the time to play the demo and wrote a full review of it, is a little bit cheap.

Yes i was forwarned from a friend and the game itself, that this game needs passion and it´s a good thing for the game to stand up for it´s ideas.... but there is a difference between slow, strategical and passionate gaming AND boring slowness. I played realistic text simulators where more interesting stuff happened in 30 minutes.

I don´t know, how you should market a full game with this time pacing with PvP attached for up to 6 players? If you look into possible competetors like Game of Thrones the board game, etc., those games are also slow and a match takes around 2-4 hours, depending on the match settings, but you never have the feeling of boringness there.

Here i spend literally almost half of my 20 turns taxing my demon population into ruins and could only afford 2 low level units and a book, captured 2 points of interest, killed 2 enemy units, maked 3 plans and did 4 diplomacy actions.... in 80 minutes? That´s horrible time pacing, even for a slower, tactical game.

[TheKbob]

I would concur that the basis of a turn-based strategy game is ensuring you have interesting options with time to deliberate their action.

However, if your choices are "spending dimes" versus "spending dollars," I would rather play a game that has more consolidated, meaningful actions per turn versus this structure.

This game is a bunch of spending dimes, more so when it takes two turns for diplomacy to attack someone (if they don't give you the tribute) is kind of rough and plodding.

The gist I can get from the OP, and my playtime, is that your turn-by-turn actions aren't very meaningful, and in being so slow, you kind of lose sight of your objectives due to everything being more incremental than an idle clicker game, IMO.

It's a great premise, and if gets a modding scene... four dark Gods... Warhammer 40k comes to mind...

But it needs to have choices and impact be more meaningful.

[Brother Pedro]

Your income hugely increases as you increase your rank in hell. You can also get more orders per turn through increasing your power, certain artifact, and other means. In fact increasing your income and number of orders per turn is usually a priority.

The bazaar is really a store. You only "auction" if you buy at the same turn as other player, then the one that overpays the most, then the one that moves earlier in the turn order gets the item. Though I suppose most players will be able to afford to buy their first item at roughly the same turn so it can lead to crowding at certain turn.

[Drakken]

This game will truly, truly shine in multiplayer. If it has an integrated matchmaking system this will be a classic.

[Chan]

Hi hi! Thank you SO much for taking the time to write this feedback out, it makes our jobs quite a lot easier when it's written so cohesively like this! Thank you again.

Of course, we're listening deeply and are still improving on balancing as we go. This version of the game has already come absolute strides from the first version (shoutout to TP1 players here haha). It's also worth noting, just like WingedIncubus mentioned, this game does really shine deep into multiplayer, once the stakes are higher and folks have distributed their focus in varying directions and it all comes to a head. This IS a Next Fest Demo though, launched by an indie team, so we have to be very mindful of dev bandwidth and preventing burnout as much as possible.

Hopefully you can see the diamond in the dark of what the game will become upon completion, once everything is fully implemented, balanced and working! We rely so much on posts like this to get there, feedback means we can make a game that folks love to play. Thank you again!

[TheKbob]

So the focus is multiplayer?

I always have a concern about indie titles that lean into multiplayer, as if they fail to catch fire, they languish. No one wants to play the "dead game."

Would like the game to be a robust single player first, built with multiplayer in mind. Up to your team to decide on the way forward, though.

[Horizon]

Yes, the focus was always multiplayer. This game and the original were built from the ground up with multiplayer in mind. The game has influences from board games like Dune (1979) and Diplomacy, with lots of wheel-and-dealing and backstabbing.

The problem with focusing on single player for this kind of game, heavy focused on diplomacy, is that computer players are almost always awful at it.

As a "dead game," the original is a cult classic still being played so who knows?

[Kaiser der goldenen Sonne]

Originally posted by Brother Pedro:

Your income hugely increases as you increase your rank in hell. You can also get more orders per turn through increasing your power, certain artifact, and other means. In fact increasing your income and number of orders per turn is usually a priority.

The bazaar is really a store. You only "auction" if you buy at the same turn as other player, then the one that overpays the most, then the one that moves earlier in the turn order gets the item. Though I suppose most players will be able to afford to buy their first item at roughly the same turn so it can lead to crowding at certain turn.

3 Orders per turn would be a must have for me in this game, otherwise the early game is just to boringly slow and that will annoy you again and again in every new match you start.

That artifacts can do that, is a thing that needs to be stripped in my opinion. All players should start with 3 orders and get new orders with their hell rank. Otherwise the whole system will lead to alot of unbalanced plays, since more orders per turn are one of the strongest buffs you can get in games like this.

For me the bazaar isn´t fun in any way right now. I think i described it the best i could above, why i feel like that about the bazaar mechanic.

To summarize the things, i think the game needs:

- I think a passive income you can pick every turn would be really good
- 3 orders per turn from the start and more per hell rank, no artifacts that increase orders per turn
- 50+ normal units with different stats in the basaar to conter meta play outbuys
- Weak starting Praetors for diplomacy actions only

- Rebalanced Points of Power (you have points of interest which are almost unconquerable for specific starting legions and they are generally to strong in their neutral form)

- a good ingame soundtrack

For me the most important dealbreaker right now (as mentioned above):

- The current basaar system, i think that definetly needs a rework to be enjoyable.

Thank you all for your comments and interest into the topic so far :)

[Kaiser der goldenen Sonne]

Originally posted by Chan:

Hi hi! Thank you SO much for taking the time to write this feedback out, it makes our jobs quite a lot easier when it's written so cohesively like this! Thank you again.

Of course, we're listening deeply and are still improving on balancing as we go. This version of the game has already come absolute strides from the first version (shoutout to TP1 players here haha). It's also worth noting, just like WingedIncubus mentioned, this game does really shine deep into multiplayer, once the stakes are higher and folks have distributed their focus in varying directions and it all comes to a head. This IS a Next Fest Demo though, launched by an indie team, so we have to be very mindful of dev bandwidth and preventing burnout as much as possible.

Hopefully you can see the diamond in the dark of what the game will become upon completion, once everything is fully implemented, balanced and working! We rely so much on posts like this to get there, feedback means we can make a game that folks love to play. Thank you again!

I´m glad when my feedback can help you developers :)

As i mentioned above, i really like the setting and game concept. I still have high hopes for this game and with more time down the pipe + some reworks, i think this game will be absolutly amazing.

Best regards
Emperor of Suns

[Gut]

Originally posted by EMPERORofSUNS-Inqu.PimpCommissar:

Originally posted by Gut:

The game is slow -by design- and is meant to be like this. It is a patient game, as indicated in the tutorial.

If you find it boring then indeed it is not a game for you, no problem with that. But criticizing it for its qualities is not very relevant to be honest.

First, it would be really nice to make posts, where you can see through the lines that someone has read the whole review and not only the first part. Just mentioning a single thing, when someone took the time to play the demo and wrote a full review of it, is a little bit cheap.

Yes i was forwarned from a friend and the game itself, that this game needs passion and it´s a good thing for the game to stand up for it´s ideas.... but there is a difference between slow, strategical and passionate gaming AND boring slowness. I played realistic text simulators where more interesting stuff happened in 30 minutes.

I don´t know, how you should market a full game with this time pacing with PvP attached for up to 6 players? If you look into possible competetors like Game of Thrones the board game, etc., those games are also slow and a match takes around 2-4 hours, depending on the match settings, but you never have the feeling of boringness there.

Here i spend literally almost half of my 20 turns taxing my demon population into ruins and could only afford 2 low level units and a book, captured 2 points of interest, killed 2 enemy units, maked 3 plans and did 4 diplomacy actions.... in 80 minutes? That´s horrible time pacing, even for a slower, tactical game.

I focused on the only meaning thing.

I read your post, but sorry to say that, it was not very lighted. And it is normal, you have played only a handfull of games with a demo. You have no idea of the big picture. Thus how can you judge if something is balanced or not? You can not. Thus why the 3/4 of your post is not pertinent.

The only meaning thing is your feedback about the "slow pace". As I already said, it IS a slow game, so criticizing it for its quality is not very relevant.

[TheKbob]

Originally posted by Horizon:

Yes, the focus was always multiplayer. This game and the original were built from the ground up with multiplayer in mind. The game has influences from board games like Dune (1979) and Diplomacy, with lots of wheel-and-dealing and backstabbing.

The problem with focusing on single player for this kind of game, heavy focused on diplomacy, is that computer players are almost always awful at it.

As a "dead game," the original is a cult classic still being played so who knows?

As a video game or as a board game? Big difference in making a board game for a niche audience and a video game that requires four people to own the game, a computer to play it on, and the servers still working (assuming this will be P2P hosted, though).

Shame, though, as that means this game is totally not for me, as adversarial multiplayer board games usually aren't fun, IMO.

If they make it into a single player focused title, they'll likely have a wider audience. Otherwise, I hope they are hedging their funding very carefully.

Edit: I looked it up; it's an old(er) video game that came out with mediocre reviews except for a small few who really dug it. It had brain-dead single player AI (strike one) and required play by email (strike two) for multiplayer. Lastly, games could last months (strike three).

As a small, indie product, that might work, but as a larger commercial product on Steam in 2023, I don't think you'll find a player base that wants to play a game that takes months to complete and requires active inputs from other players.

I don't see this product doing very well financially, IMO, if the game its based upon languished for the exact same reasons people are bringing up right now (SP concerns, online MP focused, and slow gameplaye).

[Horizon]

Well, League of Geeks also made Armello so this type of game is definitely in their wheelhouse.

Not every genre is for everyone and that's ok, there are plenty strategy games with a single player focus.

[TheKbob]

I don't disagree, but a modern remake of a multiplayer focused digital board game that can take weeks to months to complete a single game in the era of tiktoks and instagrams is a bold move, to say the least.

Hopefully they know their target demographic is insanely small. Or perhaps enhance the game to be faster and better single player options so that it has longevity.

Not every game has to be for me, but this one, more so after reading about the 2009 version that failed commercially, leaves me asking "who's it for and how big is the paying audience for such a thing?"

The previous version came out at $30 in 2009, then reduced to $15, and now isn't sold anymore.

[Kaiser der goldenen Sonne]

Originally posted by Gut:

I focused on the only meaning thing.

I read your post, but sorry to say that, it was not very lighted. And it is normal, you have played only a handfull of games with a demo. You have no idea of the big picture. Thus how can you judge if something is balanced or not? You can not. Thus why the 3/4 of your post is not pertinent.

The only meaning thing is your feedback about the "slow pace". As I already said, it IS a slow game, so criticizing it for its quality is not very relevant.

Sure, whatever you say dude.