Max tier 10 without previous upgrades: impossible?

[ovni.demon]

The holiday quest of maxing tier 10 upgrades without buying previous upgrades is nearly impssible. I am pretty far into the game (got the jingama Scythe) and even after leaving the game run for 1 hour, I still can't buy any tier 10 upgrades. And even if I could buy the first ones, the bonus are minimal, so maxing tier 10 is just a dream.
Maxing tier 9 seems fairly possible, but tier 10 ...

[xaviersxmen]

"An idle game, by definition, is not a game without gameplay but a game which needs none or very little supervision to make any kind of meaningful progress."

Wow really?... Us Idle players didnt know that we thought we needed to babysit it all the time. Wow

[ovni.demon]

Originalmente postado por Zok:

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

You may think what you want, but what I explained to you is something I experienced on the forum of multiples idle games.

likewise.

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

You talk about gameplay, but idle game by definition lacks gameplay.
You talk marketing, but how do you market an idle game? Gameplay footage? There is no gameplay, so it's one of the most boring thing to watch. There are a few good youtuber that make watching it interesting via funny comments but even then, it's quite limited.
There is also the problem that idle game is a slow game: it takes time to unlock all functionalities and devlopment is long. Would you pay for a game where its size is uncertain because it's still in development? I am not talking about early acess where you can already see what the game want to reach, I am talking about games where the end goal is not defined at all. You can also add that idle games requires a constant feedback to evolve. In case you don't remember, Energy wasn't a thing at the start of Tap Ninja. It was the feedback that brought it. And in idle games, it's often the feedback that shapes the final product. So putting a barrier by making it paying would be counter-productive since it would slow down the feedback
You can add that idle game originally started as flash games (so completely free) and a lot of the famous idle games are just port of the flash games with save transfer
There is also the problem that you can't have too many idle games. Even if you like the genre, you can only follow so much idle games before saturating because of the time consumption. So you need to make choice, and if there is good free alternative, why pay for a game?
The few paying idle game that work have a bait and were more or less finished from the beginning: Cookie clicker: its fame plus it's technically free to play on browser; Melvor idle: nostalgia of Runescape.
You talk about demo, but how do you make a demo of a game that's still undefined? It would require to update the demo regularly to reflect on the change made in the main game. So more work. And how do you make a demo of a game that require a lot of time to be enjoyable and see its full scope?
I also want to point out that any idle game without offline progress of some kind is bad.
And you point out that "it's the free to play games that require obscene amounts of time to progress and paying for MT only slightly improves the experience." (I don't know what you mean by MT btw), but tell me: how many hours did you spend on Tap Ninja? And how many hours did you spend on other offline games in average?

For the last few upgrades in prestige (your previous comment): it's normal, it's the end-game. Not all functionalities are already made. Before adding the pets, we were even further, and after they add the equipments we will get nearer the final upgrades. Idle games stop being played when you reach the 100% so it was also a staple of idle games to have the final upgrades requiring an huge grind to keep people playing and ease the grind with each updates.
The games also isn't pay to win. Amber can be gotten quite easily and the boost by Ambers isn't that big. Even the VIP only give a small boost
Though the problem I personally have as of now with Tap Ninja is when they put barrier in free event so that only paying player (or veteran player) can enjoy everything.

The definition of gameplay is "the totality of player experiences during the interaction with a video game" - courtesy of wikitionary
of MT is micro transaction.
of demo is demonstration, in this case of a game as in showing the theme, gameplay and concepts of a game. Try before you buy so to speak. Tap Ninja is a no-brainer for example. It would include everything up to 1e4 ascension cost or something like that.
of feedback is Nagging a developer until he gives up on his vision of the game and makes something he didn't intend to. Most developers don't listen to feedback.

Marketing for an idle game works like marketing any other product. Nothing special about it.

I pay for games that I have a good time with. This would have included Tap Ninja when I started playing it but not now. I've had my money's worth so to speak.

You must be very young if you believe idle games started with flash.

An idle game, by definition, is not a game without gameplay but a game which needs none or very little supervision to make any kind of meaningful progress.
The possibility or whether or not offline progress makes sense depends on the game and is a gameplay decision. Any automation game, Factorio for example, could carry an idle tag, too. Offline progress affects the pace of online progress. Games without offline progress have faster online progress - maybe save for many free to play ones.
Also offline/online progress are misnomers. Idle games can run well without being online. It's more like the progress in between two launches of the game.

People stop playing games, not just idle, it's inevitable. Specifically when their attention span ends. 100% or not.
But unlike you mind numbing grind doesn't keep me in the game - quite the opposite.

I was never complaining about not getting enough amber. I've got something like close to 2000 and nothing to spend it on because the effects are minuscule. Getting or not getting another useless 1000 on top of that matters not.
Not missing out on anything at all.

First, I am quite old, I saw the arrival of idle games. Yes, technically idle game didn't start as flash games with Progress Quest. But the true start of idle game where games like Anti-Idle, candy box, and the start of popularity was cookie clicker. While not flash games, they are browser game which is pretty similar.

Second: Marketing an indie games as of now is heavily reliant on Youtuber. But idle games aren't fun to watch so few youtuber play them (not none but not a lot). Just an example: Cookie clicker, the most famous idle game: only 19 videos with more than 1M views, and one of them is a song, for a game with 10 years. Sifu, a game with only 1 year: already 21 videos with more than 1M views (without counting the shorts).

Also, bravo, you succeeded to contradict yourself: "gameplay is "the totality of player experiences during the interaction with a video game"" and "An idle game, by definition, is not a game without gameplay but a game which needs none or very little supervision to make any kind of meaningful progress."
If there is no supervision, how do you interact? You spend most of the time without interacting with an idle game, hence why they lack gameplay (Yes, I misspoke a bit. When I said "no gameplay" it was about videos. You can't show a gameplay video if there is no interaction most of the time). It's not that there is none, but there isn't much interaction by the very principle of idle game: idling, not interacting.

Finally, don't expand the idle game definition. Sure, some game like Factorio have automation. But it's not idling, you don't let the game run for one hour to progress. Don't mix waiting and idling. And without offline progress of any kind, the game rapidly becomes a chore: you need to constantly let it run to have any progress. So letting you computer running 24h/24. Sure, some of the oldest idle games lack the offline (for example: Cookie clicker didn't have it for a long time), but starting a point, all "serious" idle games adopted it (Show me an example if I am wrong)

[Danyael133]

Originalmente postado por Plüschtiger:

Originalmente postado por Danyael133:

@Plüschtiger welchen Dan hast du jetzt? Tröste dich, ich habe Tier 10 auch nicht geschafft. Wenn du magst, add mich, vielleicht kann ich dir beim nächsten event helfen.

Dan 3. e66. Forschung Stufe 11. Bin jetzt wohl an der Stelle wo die Elixier Mauer anfängt, wo du länger für das nächste Upgrade farmen musst. Ob ich Tire 10 schaffe oder nicht mir nicht so wichtig, da stören mir etliche andere Dinge mehr, wie die generelle Richtung in die das spiel geht und anderes nannte ich ja schon.

Dan 3 klingt doch gut, bis zum 4. Dan hab ich drei Monate gebraucht. Allerdings wird es nicht besser, eher noch langsamer.

[YoMissAyy]

Originalmente postado por Lyart:

Yeah I agree. I am in the same spot.

me too

[Zok]

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

But idle games aren't fun to watch so few youtuber play them (not none but not a lot).

I watch them all the time. Not on youtube but what's the point of installing a game and never look at it ?

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

Also, bravo, you succeeded to contradict yourself: "gameplay is "the totality of player experiences during the interaction with a video game"" and "An idle game, by definition, is not a game without gameplay but a game which needs none or very little supervision to make any kind of meaningful progress."
If there is no supervision, how do you interact?

You should read complete sentences.
The full sentence is: "No or very little supervision to make any kind meaningful progress."
Setting parameters for the run, let the game do it's thing for a few days. Rebirth. Repeat.
No interaction for days. Where's the contradiction ?

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

Finally, don't expand the idle game definition. Sure, some game like Factorio have automation. But it's not idling, you don't let the game run for one hour to progress.

But it's the exact same thing. My game runs idly. Watching trains, conveyor belts, factories and whatnot do their thing. No difference in automating a factory and automating rebirths/ ascensions/dimensions/whatever.
You don't need to have an automation factory game in the foreground and wait for things. Just do something else. When you return there's progress, just like the progress in an idle game. Technically it would even be possible to have "offline" progress in a factory game, too.

There's no automation in Tap Ninja so you have to wait for a few minutes and ascend manually. Or you let it sit for a few days and don't make much more progress than if you had ascended after a few hours.
Babysit ascending a few minutes after a rebirth is the best progress you can make here and if you can pull off the mind numbing grind you can reach end game within one seasonal event and 100% it.

[ovni.demon]

Originalmente postado por Zok:

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

But idle games aren't fun to watch so few youtuber play them (not none but not a lot).

I watch them all the time. Not on youtube but what's the point of installing a game and never look at it ?

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

Also, bravo, you succeeded to contradict yourself: "gameplay is "the totality of player experiences during the interaction with a video game"" and "An idle game, by definition, is not a game without gameplay but a game which needs none or very little supervision to make any kind of meaningful progress."
If there is no supervision, how do you interact?

You should read complete sentences.
The full sentence is: "No or very little supervision to make any kind meaningful progress."
Setting parameters for the run, let the game do it's thing for a few days. Rebirth. Repeat.
No interaction for days. Where's the contradiction ?

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

Finally, don't expand the idle game definition. Sure, some game like Factorio have automation. But it's not idling, you don't let the game run for one hour to progress.

But it's the exact same thing. My game runs idly. Watching trains, conveyor belts, factories and whatnot do their thing. No difference in automating a factory and automating rebirths/ ascensions/dimensions/whatever.
You don't need to have an automation factory game in the foreground and wait for things. Just do something else. When you return there's progress, just like the progress in an idle game. Technically it would even be possible to have "offline" progress in a factory game, too.

There's no automation in Tap Ninja so you have to wait for a few minutes and ascend manually. Or you let it sit for a few days and don't make much more progress than if you had ascended after a few hours.
Babysit ascending a few minutes after a rebirth is the best progress you can make here and if you can pull off the mind numbing grind you can reach end game within one seasonal event and 100% it.

Please don't cut my sentences out of contect:
Yes you watch playing idle games, but I was talking about the marketing, that few youtubers play idle games, hence why it's difficult to promote it. So even if you like watching while playing it, it doesn't answer the problem of the marketing. The only famous youtuber that does it regularly is DangerouslyFunny.

I was talking that Idle games were games with a lack of gameplay. You said that gameplay is interactions and at the same time that idle games has little interactions, so it's the same as saying that Idle game have little gameplay.

I was talking about the difference between waiting and idling. Idling means doing absolutely nothing for long period of time. Maybe you play Tap Ninja only actively, but I think a lot of players just launch the game and directly goes to something else, letting it run in the background to get the daily quests and increase your kill count or raise you maximal elixirs. You don't that in factorio, you don't let the game run for a long period of time without interacting. I can see myself launching Tap Ninja before going to work, but that's not the case with factorio.

[Danyael133]

It would be helpful if you explain to everyone else how to get to Tier 10.
Or Tier 5, or 1000 buildings ...

[ovni.demon]

Originalmente postado por Danyael133:

It would be helpful if you explain to everyone else how to get to Tier 10.
Or Tier 5, or 1000 buildings ...

I already explained: to get full tier 10 without any other upgrades, you need to get the late elixir upgrade for offline (so being pretty far), then it's mainly offline (since you don't take the other upgrades, coin value is low, so active gameplay is not very efficient). It still takes a few days. Get a bit easier if you are VIP (double offline).
Doing quests help too. For the kill x specific enemies, go into challenge, it count (I made a post here with the best spots)

I think it took me 5 days with VIP but my max elixir was low and I just rushed to get the offline upgrade. Plus, I focused to fast on the upgrade, I should have buy building instead.

tl;dr : You need at the very least the last offline elixir upgrade, without it don't even attempt

For the 1000 building, you need to at least have reached 1000 mills with previous runs and simply don't buy mills until you have enough to buy 1000. Not very difficult if you have the requirements.

[Plüschtiger]

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

Originalmente postado por Danyael133:

It would be helpful if you explain to everyone else how to get to Tier 10.
Or Tier 5, or 1000 buildings ...

For the kill x specific enemies, go into challenge, it count (I made a post here with the best spots)

I think the list is now worthless because the composition is changing. (translated)

[ovni.demon]

Originalmente postado por Plüschtiger:

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

For the kill x specific enemies, go into challenge, it count (I made a post here with the best spots)

I think the list is now worthless because the composition is changing. (translated)

Main challenges are fixed, only weekly challenges changes.

[Danyael133]

I'm stuck, that's why I ask for help. I try to reach the 1000 buildings before event & pets came out. I'm VIP, I have the offline mod, but I only reach 950 buildings or Tier 3 without buildings.

[ovni.demon]

Originalmente postado por Danyael133:

I'm stuck, that's why I ask for help. I try to reach the 1000 buildings before event & pets came out. I'm VIP, I have the offline mod, but I only reach 950 buildings or Tier 3 without buildings.

For the buildings, unfortunately, I can't help you, there is no strategy. The only way is to get a maximum of elixir by rebirthing and get new elixir upgrades (make run of max 30min-1hour while playing relatively actively)
For the tier, I was thinking you were talking about tier 10 without getting previous upgrades; not tier 5 without building. For that, you require the "3 mills on rebirth" elixir upgrades and to play actively. But tell me how elixir and max elixir you have.

[Danyael133]

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

Originalmente postado por Danyael133:

I'm stuck, that's why I ask for help. I try to reach the 1000 buildings before event & pets came out. I'm VIP, I have the offline mod, but I only reach 950 buildings or Tier 3 without buildings.

For the buildings, unfortunately, I can't help you, there is no strategy. The only way is to get a maximum of elixir by rebirthing and get new elixir upgrades (make run of max 30min-1hour while playing relatively actively)
For the tier, I was thinking you were talking about tier 10 without getting previous upgrades; not tier 5 without building. For that, you require the "3 mills on rebirth" elixir upgrades and to play actively. But tell me how elixir and max elixir you have.

Sry my mistake I mean Tier 10, but quest is over, isn't it?
What means "3mills on rebirth" ?
I guess I skip the quests and quit the game. The game is for unemployed people who have nothing to do all day.
I upload a screenshot where you can take a look.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2932797540
Big thx & thousand kisses for help.

[Zok]

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

Please don't cut my sentences out of contect:
Yes you watch playing idle games, but I was talking about the marketing, that few youtubers play idle games, hence why it's difficult to promote it. So even if you like watching while playing it, it doesn't answer the problem of the marketing. The only famous youtuber that does it regularly is DangerouslyFunny.

google marketing.

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

I was talking that Idle games were games with a lack of gameplay. You said that gameplay is interactions and at the same time that idle games has little interactions, so it's the same as saying that Idle game have little gameplay.

The definition of gameplay is a quote from wikitionary and little is more than none.

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

I was talking about the difference between waiting and idling. Idling means doing absolutely nothing for long period of time. Maybe you play Tap Ninja only actively, but I think a lot of players just launch the game and directly goes to something else, letting it run in the background to get the daily quests and increase your kill count or raise you maximal elixirs. You don't that in factorio, you don't let the game run for a long period of time without interacting. I can see myself launching Tap Ninja before going to work, but that's not the case with factorio.

To wait means to remain in a state of expectation whereas idling means to run with reduced effort or completely disconnected from the task.
If you park your toon in the hub of a video game you're idling, if you do that with an expectation (friend comes online, trade, etc) it's waiting. The period of time or whether or not you do something else in the meantime is irrelevant.
When you start this game with the expectation something is complete when you return from work (e.g. enough coins/elixir to buy upgrades) then you are waiting.
Perhaps the ratio of waiting to idling is different but both happens in every game.
I told you before I idle a lot in factory games, just to watch the gears grind.

[ovni.demon]

Originalmente postado por Danyael133:

Originalmente postado por ovni.demon:

For the buildings, unfortunately, I can't help you, there is no strategy. The only way is to get a maximum of elixir by rebirthing and get new elixir upgrades (make run of max 30min-1hour while playing relatively actively)
For the tier, I was thinking you were talking about tier 10 without getting previous upgrades; not tier 5 without building. For that, you require the "3 mills on rebirth" elixir upgrades and to play actively. But tell me how elixir and max elixir you have.

Sry my mistake I mean Tier 10, but quest is over, isn't it?
What means "3mills on rebirth" ?
I guess I skip the quests and quit the game. The game is for unemployed people who have nothing to do all day.
I upload a screenshot where you can take a look.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2932797540
Big thx & thousand kisses for help.

Sorry, but you need at least 1e12 (1 Trillion) elixir to start going for these challenges. The 3 mills upgrade is "Not all ist lost" near the treasury unlock