Unpopular opinion: why do you love Joel (if you do at all)?

[gbuglyo]

There is a well-known truth in fiction writing: no matter how many morally questionable or outright wrong decisions a character makes, your readers (or audience) will still love him as long as he has a single redeeming quality. For Joel, that redeeming quality is obviously his fatherly love for Ellie, and rightly so. However, I am still surprised by how many people seem to glorify Joel, not even acknowledging his blatant faults of character. Personally, I could never identify with him and found him to be a truly unlikeable protagonist throughout, for the following reasons:

1. There is an early hint about Joel's character in the car scene with Sarah: he refuses to take up other people running from the chaos despite Sarah pointing out that they have room in the car. This (1) possibly leads to Sarah's death, as things may have turned out very differently if there were more people in their group, and (2) foreshadows Joel's final act at the story’s climax (saving Ellie over the whole of humanity even if he has to slaughter a bunch of Fireflies in the process), as it is shown early on that all he cares about is his own family. Expertly written, but not the signs of a likeable character.

2. Joel is shown slaughtering other people without remorse and torturing a guy (by breaking his arm) to get information (before killing the guy anyway). He does not give off an air of someone who is forced to do things that are morally wrong and feels bad about them. Instead, he comes across as simply accustomed to living this way, and casually admits murdering innocents for his own survival. It's implied that what hardened him that much was Sarah's death, but that happened 20 years ago! It could also be argued that you must be ruthless and heartless to survive in this world, but that isn't true as proven by plenty of other characters in the story.

3. Joel is bitterly hated by his own brother, to the point that he carries a grudge about 40 years later. (And their childhood obviously predates the outbreak and Sarah's death.)

4. Joel expects Ellie to be open to him at all times and not to keep any secrets or have any independent opinions different from his own. In contrast, he is very secretive about his own past, keeping it from Ellie until that late pivotal conversation they share. I found the importance of that talk to be blown out of proportion – okay, so Joel finally shared that with Ellie, does that really make him that much of a better person? Again, we're talking about something that happened 20 years ago and he should be way past the grieving stage. To me, it came across as too little, too late, and failed to convince me that Joel is any less of a hypocrite than all the other bad fathers of this world. There is the well-known trope of the hard-as-nails guy who never gets emotional but has a hidden heart of gold. This trope resonates all too well with Joel, except for that heart of gold.

So I’d like to ask for your opinions. Am I being too harsh on Joel? Was the single redeeming quality of loving Ellie enough for you to sympathize with him, or did you find other positive aspects of his character that I may have missed? Or, like me, do you also belong to the seemingly rare breed who vastly prefer Ellie's character over Joel's?

[LeftIsBest-James]

Joel loved Sarah 'n Ellie.

It's not the fact he would kill to protect them - any clown would kill for spare ammo then - he would die to protect them.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by LeftIsBest-James:

Joel loved Sarah 'n Ellie.

It's not the fact he would kill to protect them - anyone would kill for spare ammo then - he would die to protect them.

True, I'd never question that. The question is, does that alone make him a person we should sympathize with? Let's look at The Godfather for contrast. Vito Corleone had a deep love for his children and would clearly die for them, and I'd even argue that he is morally superior to Joel in other aspects of his character, yet he is still perceived as primarily a villain (albeit a complex one), while Joel is generally perceived as a hero.

[LeftIsBest-James]

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

True, I'd never question that. The question is, does that alone make him a person we should sympathize with? Let's look at The Godfather for contrast. Vito Corleone had a deep love for his children and would clearly die for them, and I'd even argue that he is morally superior to Joel in other aspects of his character, yet he is still perceived as primarily a villain (albeit a complex one), while Joel is generally perceived as a hero.

You empathize with the person because of their love for a cared-one.
The rest, villain/hero/anti-hero/whatever is all powerfantasy.

The empathy and the powerfantasy are separate entities:
- the first ties you to emotionally to the second (which can be DonColeone-villain or IronGiant-hero)

Narratively, you can whitewash a lot of horrific, genocidal sht if you get a good script/direction/execution/hook. Dracula/Werewolves.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by LeftIsBest-James:

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

True, I'd never question that. The question is, does that alone make him a person we should sympathize with? Let's look at The Godfather for contrast. Vito Corleone had a deep love for his children and would clearly die for them, and I'd even argue that he is morally superior to Joel in other aspects of his character, yet he is still perceived as primarily a villain (albeit a complex one), while Joel is generally perceived as a hero.

You empathize with the person because of their love for a cared-one.
The rest, villain/hero/anti-hero/whatever is all powerfantasy.

The empathy and the powerfantasy are separate entities:
- the first ties you to emotionally to the second (which can be DonColeone-villain or IronGiant-hero)

I see. But it's still difficult for me to understand why people empathize with him to the point of glorification on online forums, downplaying or completely overlooking his villainous aspects.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by LeftIsBest-James:

Narratively, you can whitewash a lot of horrific, genocidal sht if you get a good script/diection/execution/hook.

Yeah, I fully agree with that.

[LeftIsBest-James]

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

I see. But it's still difficult for me to understand why people empathize with him to the point of glorification on online forums, downplaying or completely overlooking his villainous aspects.

"... The empathy and the powerfantasy are separate entities ..."
"... point of glorification on online forums ..."

- mask-on motives, layers and layers (eg. why do people glorify preppers, why 2A)
This is too big(and inflammatory) to unpack in a thread and would probably derail this thread.

Your original question was why do they love Joel despite the stuff he did. (motive)
Not why do people glorify what Joels does. (means)
"... The empathy and the powerfantasy are separate entities ..."

greentext: 6x lines to avoid 6x words

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by LeftIsBest-James:

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

I see. But it's still difficult for me to understand why people empathize with him to the point of glorification on online forums, downplaying or completely overlooking his villainous aspects.

"... The empathy and the powerfantasy are separate entities ..."
"... point of glorification on online forums ..."

- mask-on motives, layers and layers (eg. why do people glorify preppers, why 2A)
This is too big(and inflammatory) to unpack in a thread and would probably derail this thread.

Your original question was why do they love Joel despite the stuff he did. (motive)
Not why do people glorify what Joels does. (means)

True, but interestingly, as I pointed out in the first paragraph of my original post, some people seem incapable of empathizing with Joel without glorifying everything he did in the game. That's what surprises, and honestly, scares me a little, and it's the main reason I launched this thread.

[LeftIsBest-James]

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

True, but interestingly, as I pointed out in the first paragraph of my original post, some people seem incapable of empathizing with Joel without glorifying everything he did in the game. That's what surprises, and honestly, scares me a little, and it's the main reason I launched this thread.

Joel has a broad fanbase: (it's a Venn diagram).
- people empathize with him
- a smaller group that glorify violence

The glory-crowd sometimes empathize with Joel, but it's not essential.
They'd happily play a game just for the memes. Deus Vult
- You're assuming 'empathy' drew them to the game - it was just the icing.

But this is most games, no?
- probably a nuance of seeing explosions vs watching someone's panicked face glaze over as you choke them out.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by LeftIsBest-James:

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

True, but interestingly, as I pointed out in the first paragraph of my original post, some people seem incapable of empathizing with Joel without glorifying everything he did in the game. That's what surprises, and honestly, scares me a little, and it's the main reason I launched this thread.

Joel has a broad fanbase: (it's a Venn diagram).
- people empathize with him
- a smaller group that glorify violence

The glory-crowd sometimes empathize with Joel, but it's not essential.
They'd happily play a game just for the memes. Deus Vult
- You're assuming 'empathy' drew them to the game - it was just the icing.

Yeah, possibly.

[LeftIsBest-James]

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

Yeah, possibly.

But this is most games, no?
- probably a nuance of seeing explosions vs watching someone's panicked face glaze over as you choke them out.

[Devsman]

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

while Joel is generally perceived as a hero.

By whom? I mean, he's a protagonist but he sure as hell isn't a hero.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by Devsman:

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

while Joel is generally perceived as a hero.

By whom? I mean, he's a protagonist but he sure as hell isn't a hero.

By quite a lot of people, apparently.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/i5ffoq/for_me_joel_is_the_real_hero_of_the_2013_game/

[mark1971]

I can't say I love him.

I like Ellie, that's the real star of the show. Furthermore, I also like Joel but in a different way. He's someone who get things done, no matter what: even if he has to walk over corpses. That's total anti-heroic. From my perspective, he's destroyed, but still alive for the simple cause of being existent.

Ellie gives his life a sense. But his choices are - in many ways, conflicting and egocentric. You know what happens in Part II with him, and Abby. They pay. It's like a descent. I'm sorry for Joel, because (his) life made him of what he is.

Bottom line is, I really appreciate that I can think about the game. I'm very impressed by the story, it has its depths, I like to see how it will continue in Part III.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by Stardust_One:

I can't say I love him.

I like Ellie, that's the real star of the show. Furthermore, I also like Joel but in a different way. He's someone who get things done, no matter what: even if he has to walk over corpses. That's total anti-heroic. From my perspective, he's destroyed, but still alive for the simple cause of being existent.

Ellie gives his life a sense. But his choices are - in many ways, conflicting and egocentric. You know what happens in Part II with him, and Abby. They pay. It's like a descent. I'm sorry for Joel, because (his) life made him of what he is.

Bottom line is, I really appreciate that I can think about the game. I'm very impressed by the story, it has its depths, I like to see how it will continue in Part III.

That's a reasonable opinion. And I agree: the best part of this game is that it's thought-provoking. I haven't played Part II yet, but will probably pick it up if it gets a PC release.

[miezematze]

Part 1 and 2 are truely masterpieces.
And the characters and their behavior are absolutely logical and understandable.

In part 1, Joel becomes a father figure for Elli.
or Elli becomes the daughter that Joel couldn't protect and now tries to do everything he can to help Elli... In the end, he even puts her life above humanity's possible chance of healing.

A questionable and provocative decision...but also a realistic and exciting one.

The life of any child in Africa does not affect us as much as that of family and friends...if the relationship is close.
I would even say ... their are many ppl out their who put the life of their dog over human life (ppl they don´t know) ... maybe it´s legit :D
Good dog > bad human





-------- (part 2 spoiler)

In part 2 It turns out that the brilliant doctor who would probably have gotten a cure out of Ellis' head (which would have resulted in her death) was Abby's father.
And Joel killed him...for Ellis' life.

Abby wants revenge for her father and for Joel's selfishness...

Abby gets her revenge...but revenge takes revenge...

Elli wants revenge for Joel...

Friends on both sides are dying... it keeps building up...

... and in the end, despite all the hatred that has built up, there is forgiveness.

Because there is mutual understanding and insight.

In the end it is forgiven (for the moment)...but not forgotten.