TOTAL SPOILER - Discussing the ending of TLoU.

[Bramicus]

Spoilers about the Part 1 story only.
PLEASE DON'T GIVE ANY SPOILERS ABOUT THE SEQUEL(S).

If you were upset at the ending of the Part 1 story, you needn't be. Joel made the right decision, although it's messed up that the game wouldn't let him make any good decision that didn't involve killing the doctor. I tried shooting him in his left arm; that didn't work. I tried shooting him in his right arm, the one with the scalpel; that didn't work either — he kept threatening Joel with the scalpel in his right hand even after being shot in that arm, which is ridiculous. And shooting him a second time in the same (right) arm or hand just killed the doctor for no good reason whatsoever, since being shot twice in the same arm would never kill anyone unless they let him bleed out.

Beyond that, the doctor was totally wrong. First of all, there's no reason to think that killing the girl and taking the fungus from her brain would allow them to develop a successful vaccine. If they hadn't been able to do that with brains of dead people who'd been infected with the original strain (which I'm sure medical researchers would have tried), there's no reason to think it would work with the mutated one. And if it didn't work the first time they tried, they'd have nothing left because the girl would be dead.

Any sane medical team would keep the girl alive while trying different things. At most they would have had to operate to take a small sample of the fungus from her brain (if they had to go there to get it, which is unlikely), and grow it in a brain-like medium. That way, if they couldn't get a vaccine from it the first time, they could try again with a different approach.

The medical approach most likely to work would probably be to infect others (with their permission) with the mutated fungus. If that worked, they could use that fungus to inoculate everyone on the planet with the "safe" fungus. Maybe some less insane doctor in a sequel will try that approach.

The way pathogens work, the most successful mutations are the ones that keep their victims alive and healthy so the pathogen itself can spread (which is why countless bacteria that help our digestion live in our bodies all the time, in a symbiotic relationship with humans). In the real world, if a fungus mutated like that one time as it did with Ellie, that mutation would certainly occur again elsewhere in the world. Even without medical assistance, the mutated virus would naturally spread (we've seen that happen recently with the Chinese lab COVID virus — the less lethal strains spread far faster, and are therefore more successful because their hosts don't die. If that happened with the fungus (as it inevitably would in nature), eventually all humans left alive would be infected with it and would therefore be safe from fungi of that sort. Any further mutations would be more successful in spreading if they were symbiotic with their hosts, i.e., gave their hosts additional abilities or aid, because then those infected would live longer, be healthier, and would have time to reproduce more often (further spreading the helpful mutation) before they died. Again, that's how the good stomach bacteria that "infect" all humanity evolved over time and eventually became universal.

It's a shame Joel felt he had to lie to Ellie at the end, but let's face it: the guy's no medical genius, so he probably thinks he doomed mankind (which he almost certainly did not, as I've explained above). I'm sure his lies will come back to bite him and cause emotional upheavals with Ellie in TLoU part 2 — But I haven't played it, so PLEASE DON'T GIVE ME ANY SPOILERS ABOUT THE SEQUEL — do that in a separate thread, if you must.

And finally, that insane doctor was a regular Dr. Mengele, experimenting with human beings without their permission "to advance medical science for the good of humanity." There had to be another way to find a cure without doing that, as I explained above. And if there wasn't… if the human race really needed to sacrifice an innocent girl (or any person) without their permission in order to save itself, then it wasn't worth saving.

[Mono]

In my opinion, you chose one of the extreme interpretations and the creators rather wanted to leave Joel's decision in gray shades. Nothing here is supposed to be simple, black and white.
Joel did not choose well, he chose the lesser of two evils. Or the greater, depends on who you ask.
That's the beautiful thing about this series, that there are no simple and clear-cut answers. That it inspires discussion.

[n#n#m#]

Originally posted by Bramicus:

Joel made the right decision, although it's messed up that the game wouldn't let him make any good decision that didn't involve killing the doctor.

Not really. The player could've spared the doctor, but Joel sure as hell wouldn't and the game is all about 'clicking' with main characters for the sake of emotional impact from the story instead of detaching from them and making decisions on a clear head. Imagine Joel's headspace when he stormed the operation room: he went through losing Sarah, all of a sudden got 2nd daughter 20 years later, went through hell with her and now he's about to lose a daughter once again, only this time he can actually do something about it. To him, everything and everyone is a threat to Ellie at this moment, there can be no question about right or wrong. The ability to choose between sparing and killing would ruin the story imo.

[Cyroth]

Ellie is, as far as we know, the only immune person on the face of the planet and Dr "never read The Goose That Laid The Golden Egg" decided the best course of action was to open up her head and kill her.
Shotgun to the face was the correct course of action.

Cordyceps isn't a virus, so IDK if it would evolve to become less lethal. The infected are still "alive" after all.

[Bramicus]

Originally posted by Stefan od miesa:

In my opinion, you chose one of the extreme interpretations and the creators rather wanted to leave Joel's decision in gray shades. That it inspires discussion.

Agreed. Unfortunately, the game creators aren't actually medical researchers in the treatment of communicable fungal pathogens, so their theory of why they had to kill Ellie was absurd and unnecessarily immoral — that's my only point, and also that if the end is too depressing for you, it's possible to think of it as actually being positive.

[Bramicus]

Originally posted by Cyroth:

The infected are still "alive" after all.

True, but their infection makes them far more likely to be killed by the uninfected than would an innocuous mutation, doesn't it? So innocuous or helpful mutations would be way more successful—that's how evolution works.

[CJM]

Originally posted by ideyaf1x:

all of a sudden got 2nd daughter 20 years later,

That makes it sound like Joel is making a purely selfish decision. Joel is the only person Ellie trusts. She is counting on him. Joel is not without empathy. He realizes that Ellie has imprinted on him. She may not be his daughter, but he has taken Ellie under his wing.

Joel is a thug, shaking down people in the slums for cash. He's not exactly a hero. However, by the end of the game he does take responsibility for Ellie.

The vibe of the game is that the human world is dying. When Tommy's group got a generator working they would not likely have the resources to maintain that generator long term. However, it offers a short period of hope for a few survivors.

The game is just a slice of what it is to be in a dying post-apocalyptic world.

[Corona Scurrae]

Originally posted by Stefan od miesa:

In my opinion, you chose one of the extreme interpretations and the creators rather wanted to leave Joel's decision in gray shades. Nothing here is supposed to be simple, black and white.
Joel did not choose well, he chose the lesser of two evils. Or the greater, depends on who you ask.
That's the beautiful thing about this series, that there are no simple and clear-cut answers. That it inspires discussion.

I honestly disagree. the fireflies are like any leftist group or rather more extreme versions of them that are willing to sacrifice everyone and everything in order to get power.

if anyone thinks the fireflies wouldn't have abused the vaccine to gain support and wage war, you are definitely naive and that is if they managed to do that all. they could have killed ellie and gained nothing in the process. what then? the group would have splintered nonetheless because no one is willing to be a mindless canon fodder for a future, they probably won't even experience themselves.

I speak out of experience here, since I have witnessed it first hand what these leftist groups or their extreme versions tend to do. my great uncle was lured by these ♥♥♥♥♥, sent into battle with just the most rudimentary training for the right of the workers and he lost everything in the process. he was a genius and could have become one of the leading experts in medicine but thanks to propaganda and peer pressure, he threw his life away and never recovered when he found out that their leaders betrayed them and sold them out to the government.

he still lived his full life but was completely broken and never allowed to attend university again.

[Corona Scurrae]

Originally posted by CJM:

Originally posted by ideyaf1x:

all of a sudden got 2nd daughter 20 years later,

That makes it sound like Joel is making a purely selfish decision. Joel is the only person Ellie trusts. She is counting on him. Joel is not without empathy. He realizes that Ellie has imprinted on him. She may not be his daughter, but he has taken Ellie under his wing.

Joel is a thug, shaking down people in the slums for cash. He's not exactly a hero. However, by the end of the game he does take responsibility for Ellie.

The vibe of the game is that the human world is dying. When Tommy's group got a generator working they would not likely have the resources to maintain that generator long term. However, it offers a short period of hope for a few survivors.

The game is just a slice of what it is to be in a dying post-apocalyptic world.

and a false perspective at that because no matter what people say, there is no human being that is completely worthless. especially in such hard times, we would see more people showing their ingenuity.

imo all of these post apocalyptic stories, don't take into consideration that not everyone is going to lie down and die but it's artificial drama that people like, so they keep feeding them that.

[Mono]

Originally posted by Pelopidas:

Originally posted by Stefan od miesa:

In my opinion, you chose one of the extreme interpretations and the creators rather wanted to leave Joel's decision in gray shades. Nothing here is supposed to be simple, black and white.
Joel did not choose well, he chose the lesser of two evils. Or the greater, depends on who you ask.
That's the beautiful thing about this series, that there are no simple and clear-cut answers. That it inspires discussion.

I honestly disagree. the fireflies are like any leftist group or rather more extreme versions of them that are willing to sacrifice everyone and everything in order to get power.

if anyone thinks the fireflies wouldn't have abused the vaccine to gain support and wage war, you are definitely naive and that is if they managed to do that all. they could have killed ellie and gained nothing in the process. what then? the group would have splintered nonetheless because no one is willing to be a mindless canon fodder for a future, they probably won't even experience themselves.

I speak out of experience here, since I have witnessed it first hand what these leftist groups or their extreme versions tend to do. my great uncle was lured by these ♥♥♥♥♥, sent into battle with just the most rudimentary training for the right of the workers and he lost everything in the process. he was a genius and could have become one of the leading experts in medicine but thanks to propaganda and peer pressure, he threw his life away and never recovered when he found out that their leaders betrayed them and sold them out to the government.

he still lived his full life but was completely broken and never allowed to attend university again.

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone will draw their own theory and their own feelings from the ending (or from the whole storyline). And that's what the people at Naughty Dog intended. They didn't give us clear clues and motives on a platter. They wanted to give us room for thought and discussion.
And as you can see, they succeeded.

[WeirdScienceX]

'Joel made the right decision' is just your interpretation.

They didn't offer Ellie a choice which is just straight up murder of a child. There were no guarantee they could develop a cure.

The fireflies are just as much thugs as the others, as shown how they treat Joel after he got Ellie all the way to him, they knocked him out while performing CPR, and then when he was told to leave the guy guarding him was antagonistic the whole time.

The Fireflies could never be trusted to actually distribute a vaccine, if they could even manufacture it.

The end part of the story was weak in my opinion, the whole rush to operate on Ellie, they had no time to run any sort of comprehensive tests and were going to kill the only viable person. They just did that to force Joel into some sort of action.

The only thing I found fault with was Joel lying to Ellie, but I can understand that in a way as he was afraid of loosing the most important person in the world to him.

[n#n#m#]

Originally posted by CJM:

Originally posted by ideyaf1x:

all of a sudden got 2nd daughter 20 years later,

That makes it sound like Joel is making a purely selfish decision. Joel is the only person Ellie trusts. She is counting on him. Joel is not without empathy. He realizes that Ellie has imprinted on him. She may not be his daughter, but he has taken Ellie under his wing.

That's pretty obvious? Ellie wouldn't be his 2nd daughter If he didn't care about her that much, but in turn, his feelings grew that strong exactly because Ellie started caring about him too.
Also idk why it sounds selfish, in general parents will do anything to protect their kids, that's just how it is.

[CJM]

Originally posted by Pelopidas:

and a false perspective at that because no matter what people say, there is no human being that is completely worthless. especially in such hard times, we would see more people showing their ingenuity.

I'm not sure exactly where we are crossing each other in this discussion.

A "false perspective"??? Even more so "worthless"??? It is not so much that somebody is considered worthless in such a world, but that among the survivors were those that had a gang mentality. It is a failed state.

There was a TV show called "Revolution" with a broader look at the Nation. It wasn't a Zombie story, but rather the premise is that we lost the ability to provide electricity for modern technology that set the entire world back 100-200 years. Some regions collapsed into a failed state, but others did not. The city of Atlanta GA was portrayed as having rebuilt itself into a successful Steampunk industrial society.

Originally posted by Pelopidas:

imo all of these post apocalyptic stories, don't take into consideration that not everyone is going to lie down and die but it's artificial drama that people like, so they keep feeding them that.

Nobody is shown as lying down. They are just not banding together for the common good. The situations are escalated to life and death, and typically needlessly.

The supply trucks were frequently shown to be struggling. Farms were being overrun either by zombies or bandits or both.

Originally posted by ideyaf1x:

That's pretty obvious? Ellie wouldn't be his 2nd daughter If he didn't care about her that much, but in turn, his feelings grew that strong exactly because Ellie started caring about him too.
Also idk why it sounds selfish, in general parents will do anything to protect their kids, that's just how it is.

Two interpretations:
1. Joel became emotionally attached to something he was afraid of losing.
2. Joel felt a responsibility, a duty, to protect something that could not protect itself.

The first is selfish, the latter could happen even if his feelings had not yet grown that strong. Ellie might not be his "2nd daughter", despite Joel being Ellie's father figure.