**Spoiler Talk** - The Ending

[GhostHawk196]

Most of you here have already played the game on PS3, 4 or 5 so let’s talk about the ending. I thought it was perfect albeit a bit abrupt. It was one of the thought provoking games I’ve played; it lingered in my mind after the end game for about a week.

I think Joel did what any normal human being in his position would have done, I cannot see anything he did wrong at the end. I would have been more inclined to weigh up sacrificing one to save the entirety of humanity if this was at the start of the outbreak but years into the outbreak, humanity has become more dangerous than the infected. I think at that stage, humanity was beyond saving and it was not worth sacrificing one to save what remains of humanity.

Thoughts?

[mr.devolver]

Well, just like someone else already mentioned elsewhere, apparently this was never about saving humanity, the people you deal with are giving it away every time you encounter them and reading the various notes only confirms it.

[Blacksmyth Zephlyn]

I doubt the fireflies would have saved humanity even if they did achieve their goal with Ellie.
Probably sell it to whoever payed the most. Also the procedure only had a percentage chance of working but not a guarantee so Joel didn't want to take that chance.

Also it was said that it's a vaccine not a cure so it would only protect from the parasite but if you're already infected (even if not turned) then you're still screwed.

Also as you mentioned humanity is practically already screwed. Major cities destroyed, landscapes and structures are torn apart from tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.
Only good places are small towns for what's left to continue. So even if humanity was saved from the parasite, its not like things would automatically go back to normal. Militia and anyone desperate enough would still be killing each other for resources, it's just the infected would be pushovers.

So while Joel maybe messed up for killing a bunch of people not knowing the consequences for his actions, when I look and think about all the possible outcomes I just don't see much of a point if he did let them do their experiment killing Ellie.

Just my opinion...

[mr.devolver]

Yeah, a bunch of merciless murderers will save humanity, right...

[Lynxie]

Call me crazy, but If I were in Joel’s shoes I would have done the same…

It is a horrible thing, i know, Joel killed a brilliant doctor, a leader of Fireflies, bunch of guards, etc…human beings which had relatives, friends, maybe kids…But they were going to kill his, or if you are in his shoes, your daughter, the person you crossed half of a fcking country with, the person who saved you, the person who you saved, the person you got shot, beaten, chased many times, the reason and meaning of your life after you lost your daughter, (sorta lost) brother and Tess (your partner in crime)…And there was no evidence that killing Ellie would give humanity a chance…it was a 50/50 but Ellie would have died 100%

Nah, Joel chose love over a miracle, a chance that might have been just a mirage…And I would have done the same

[Coffee Addict]

Nguyên văn bởi Lynxie:

Joel killed a brilliant doctor

its the doctor fault though he brought a scalpel to a gun fight, he should of just stood aside instead of trying to take joel on

[mr.devolver]

Nguyên văn bởi Judy:

Nguyên văn bởi Lynxie:

Joel killed a brilliant doctor

its the doctor fault though he brought a scalpel to a gun fight, he should of just stood aside instead of trying to take joel on

So the doctor wasn't so brilliant after all, huh?

[Drakzen]

If Joel (1 man) could single handed dismantle their organisation during the last section of the game then they never stood a chance of giving the world the cure (if the operation even worked which was doubtful). Bandits would have likely taken it and kept it for themselves or the military so regardless of who gets it the fireflies and all their members would be killed.

Also from going through the academy you see how wildly incompetent and petty their scientists are (guy let out infected monkeys out of spite). I also doubt they would have found a cure from it anyway as if I remember right the remaster implies that it has never been tried before (I think in the original you can find lore suggesting that every operation failed).

So yea alot of proof that they'd fail and let's not forget they could have informed the military of a case of immunity but decided not to because they want to be the ones responsible for saving the world.

[Lynxie]

Nguyên văn bởi Judy:

Nguyên văn bởi Lynxie:

Joel killed a brilliant doctor

its the doctor fault though he brought a scalpel to a gun fight, he should of just stood aside instead of trying to take joel on

I disagree. Joel killed that doctor for the same reason he killed Marleen: if they were spared they would have chased (well not personally them but still) Joel and Ellie. So Joel had to make sure that the only doctor who can possibly make a cure and Marleen aka leader of the fireflies would not do that…And the best way to make sure is to kill them.

As we know from part 2, noone was looking for Ellie or Joel, fireflies just simply collapsed into nothing.
And if it wasnt for Abby and her obsession of getting a revenge, Joel and Ellie would have been left alone for the rest of their lives

[muckymucks]

Joel killing the last brain surgeon on Earth is unforgivable.

[V I D A L]

Joel just did what most people would have done in his position. Screw humanity. He just wanted a second chance to save "his" daughter.

Besides.. there was no guarantee that the fireflies were able to create a cure. It was a long shot to being with.

Science wise.. they're clueless idiots talking about vaccine. It wasn't a virus, but a fungus infection. There is no such a thing as a vaccine for fungi.

Third.. Fireflies were a closed group with unclear and unreliable intentions. You think they would open up kiosks around the city with free vaccination? No. They would keep it to themselves, vaccinate themselves and maybe trade and sell for others. If anything they would become some sort of New Order.

Lastly.. they were very shady by putting Ellie under assuming that is what she would've wanted without even giving her a chance to have a say in it or at least give Joel goodbye.

I think the end is perfect as is.

[gbuglyo]

Nguyên văn bởi V I D A L:

Joel just did what most people would have done in his position. Screw humanity. He just wanted a second chance to save "his" daughter.

Besides.. there was no guarantee that the fireflies were able to create a cure. It was a long shot to being with.

Science wise.. they're clueless idiots talking about vaccine. It wasn't a virus, but a fungus infection. There is no such a thing as a vaccine for fungi.

Third.. Fireflies were a closed group with unclear and unreliable intentions. You think they would open up kiosks around the city with free vaccination? No. They would keep it to themselves, vaccinate themselves and maybe trade and sell for others. If anything they would become some sort of New Order.

Lastly.. they were very shady by putting Ellie under assuming that is what she would've wanted without even giving her a chance to have a say in it or at least give Joel goodbye.

I think the end is perfect as is.

Good reasoning, but it only proves the ending is poorly written, as none of that was intentionally done so by the creators. According to the plot, it's supposed to be a real moral dilemma: saving Ellie or saving humanity.

I also found a fungal vaccine to be a long shot, but thought that maybe they could manage to find a cordyceps-specific antigen. Then, I found the recording with the weird pseudoscientific explanation about how Ellie seems to have a normal WBC count not mounting an immune response, making it all a nonsensical mess. Besides, why on earth would they need to remove her whole brain instead of taking a brain biopsy that she could survive? I couldn't help thinking about how this plot hole could have been avoided (probably by discussing their story idea with an actual MD and making the dilemma play out differently). After that, I was vaguely aware of the ending being dramatic and powerful, but it was mostly lost on me as my brain was still stuck at that earlier moment, desperately searching for a meaning where there was none.

[GoldInfinit7]

I believe seeing how all the events would unfold it would have been better for everyone if Joel just collected his pay from the Fireflies for delivering the "cargo" and just left and retired the rest of his life with his brother in Jackson. All the Part II characters would be better off except for Ellie

If she succeeded in the vaccine then she would be remembered as a hero. If she failed to produce the vaccine then it would be a slap in the face of the Fireflies and an embarrassment for them that everyone would lose faith in them and abandon their cause.

[azogthedefiler25]

Nguyên văn bởi V I D A L:

Joel just did what most people would have done in his position. Screw humanity. He just wanted a second chance to save "his" daughter.

Besides.. there was no guarantee that the fireflies were able to create a cure. It was a long shot to being with.

Science wise.. they're clueless idiots talking about vaccine. It wasn't a virus, but a fungus infection. There is no such a thing as a vaccine for fungi.

Third.. Fireflies were a closed group with unclear and unreliable intentions. You think they would open up kiosks around the city with free vaccination? No. They would keep it to themselves, vaccinate themselves and maybe trade and sell for others. If anything they would become some sort of New Order.

Lastly.. they were very shady by putting Ellie under assuming that is what she would've wanted without even giving her a chance to have a say in it or at least give Joel goodbye.

I think the end is perfect as is.

Agreed.

[RageMojo]

Nguyên văn bởi gbuglyo:

Good reasoning, but it only proves the ending is poorly written, as none of that was intentionally done so by the creators. According to the plot, it's supposed to be a real moral dilemma: saving Ellie or saving humanity.

That was absolutely not the focus of the plot. How could that be the plot when it was never a dilemma for Joel.

The plot is about choice and healing. When leaving Tommy's, Joel gave Ellie a choice. Marlene did not. He was always going to pick Ellie over anything, unless Ellie made her own choice that he would have to respect.

[gbuglyo]

Nguyên văn bởi RageMojo:

Nguyên văn bởi gbuglyo:

Good reasoning, but it only proves the ending is poorly written, as none of that was intentionally done so by the creators. According to the plot, it's supposed to be a real moral dilemma: saving Ellie or saving humanity.

That was absolutely not the focus of the plot. How could that be the plot when it was never a dilemma for Joel.

The plot is about choice and healing. When leaving Tommy's, Joel gave Ellie a choice. Marlene did not. He was always going to pick Ellie over anything, unless Ellie made her own choice that he would have to respect.

Indeed, the plot shows that, for a person like Joel, it's not a dilemma because he chooses saving Ellie over saving humanity even if he has to single-handedly slaughter a bunch of good guys in the process (including one he knows from earlier). That is where the story arc is aiming at, right from the very beginning: there is an early scene in which Sarah suggests they pick up the other family since they have enough room in the car, but Joel says drive on, showing his care for Sarah and no care for anyone else. It's a great arc in its own right, and Joel being what he is serves it well. Too bad they messed up the ending with such a forced plot device about Ellie needing to die as a result of a nonsensical medical operation. All the errors the creators made about the ending lead some people (like the above commenters) to maintain a head canon in which Joel is morally right and he actually had no choice, and other people (like me) to ponder over whether that head canon should be real canon due to the nonsensical nature of that last plot twist.

Update: your last sentence is thought-provoking. Do you really think Joel would have respected Ellie's choice if she decided to sacrifice herself? I'm leaning towards no, as he seems like the kind of guy who would save Ellie no matter what, even against her will. He never had much respect for Ellie's decisions, although it could be argued that he showed signs of change in that aspect towards the end of the story.