Boss nerf and overall experience

[mad_manitou]

For starter, i am glad i could finish my first pass of this game before the nerf did hit, i could experience the tension at its fullest and this is not because i consider myself to be an elitist but i wanted the challenge and it delivered.

I understand that the community was divergent on the matter but global changes like so do affect everyone, those who welcomed the nerf and those who did not want it.

Th best solution to this would be an option to "tune down" the boss after repeated failures and only if the player is willing to do so. Like many others i want the full experience and the same challenge to test things out on newer builds, if anything i would like bosses to scale in difficulty any following play through.

If indeed FromSoft is willing to change the game after the facts, then having options to tune the game to the player's desire would be the solution.
There are mods already in order to do so however the risk of being banned for using them is real.

Give us options to set the game the way we want or revert back to pre-update state.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Glad to see more and more people speaking up.

Bring up pre-nerf bosses as a mode, in NG+ and/or add a Hard mode where things are harder.

[Call Sign: Raven]

The nerf was miniscule, they changed two attacks on Balteus, slightly lowered C-Spider's resistances and tuned up it's aim a bit, and fixed a glitch that occurs while fighting Ibis that creates an instant laser beam that is impossible to dodge, no matter what. Literally nothing else was nerfed, so you would have gotten the same experience, regardless.

[Raven]

Is it really a big deal? I'm gonna be honest with you, I cleared the game completely and did everything like week 1/2 ago, I started a brand new file to start all over from scratch, but got side tracked by another game. Going by how crazy the posts are over here, is the nerf that extreme? I personally got so far as beating baltaeus again before the nerf hit, and it was way easier than the first time I did it because I realized my abilities as a pilot got way better.

Are you sure the nerf was really that extreme or did the people who were already good at it just feel like its that extreme because it wasn't so bad in the first place? I admit, it took me like 3 hours the first time around because its intimidating when you don't know what you are doing. After I started from scratch? I died the first time because I forgot how much those stupid flame blades hurt, and then I got him the second time.

[918informant]

IMO, the problem with the difficulty only applies to your first play through. The starting weapons and parts are all kind of weak and if you don't buy the right weapons you can be in a bind. I thought a couple of bosses were too hard initially, but once I unlocked most the more powerful guns, they were a breeze. By my 3rd play through I beat the final boss 1st try.

Most of it has to do with figuring out what weapons and parts work best, which in the beginning can be daunting, especially when you have to buy parts before you know if they are good or not. I did not unlock all the weapons/parts until after my 3rd play through.

[Tsar Platinum]

I'm indifferent. I struggled on the first playthrough quite a bit but never did again for any other attempt. New players will have the exact same experience because the thing that will get you killed during these fights (especially for Balteus and Sea Spider) is your general lack of experience and amount of parts.

Honestly I don't think they needed changes, but I don't really care. The only boss that I think would need a change was the tutorial chopper. It's a bit silly that it can leave the arena, leaving you with virtually no way to counter attack and potentially getting you killed because of the invisible walls.

[Raven]

Originally posted by Magos Dominus:

I'm indifferent. I struggled on the first playthrough quite a bit but never did again for any other attempt. New players will have the exact same experience because the thing that will get you killed during these fights (especially for Balteus and Sea Spider) is your general lack of experience and amount of parts.

Honestly I don't think they needed changes, but I don't really care. The only boss that I think would need a change was the tutorial chopper. It's a bit silly that it can leave the arena, leaving you with virtually no way to counter attack and potentially getting you killed because of the invisible walls.

Man, screw that helicopter. Of all the missions to S rank, the freaking tutorial is in my top 3 hardest just because of the damn out of bounds crap

[mad_manitou]

Originally posted by Raven:

Is it really a big deal? I'm gonna be honest with you, I cleared the game completely and did everything like week 1/2 ago, I started a brand new file to start all over from scratch, but got side tracked by another game. Going by how crazy the posts are over here, is the nerf that extreme? I personally got so far as beating baltaeus again before the nerf hit, and it was way easier than the first time I did it because I realized my abilities as a pilot got way better.

Are you sure the nerf was really that extreme or did the people who were already good at it just feel like its that extreme because it wasn't so bad in the first place? I admit, it took me like 3 hours the first time around because its intimidating when you don't know what you are doing. After I started from scratch? I died the first time because I forgot how much those stupid flame blades hurt, and then I got him the second time.

Well to give you an idea, i beaten the game on the starter frame, i just added another missile pod and changed the booster and generator. I got my sitting cushion handed to me a lot of times but managed to beat them once i learned the attack patterns.

i tried it out just for fun on the same build and while the starter rifle got a descent buff, i could beat balteus and the Spider with spare repair kits at the end of the fight.

So while they do not look like big changes on paper i assure you that fighting those made a seriously easier experience, on the same build.

I know that i got better and even got a buffed gun but the difference was far more significant than what i expected.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by Raven:

Is it really a big deal? I'm gonna be honest with you, I cleared the game completely and did everything like week 1/2 ago, I started a brand new file to start all over from scratch, but got side tracked by another game. Going by how crazy the posts are over here, is the nerf that extreme? I personally got so far as beating baltaeus again before the nerf hit, and it was way easier than the first time I did it because I realized my abilities as a pilot got way better.

Are you sure the nerf was really that extreme or did the people who were already good at it just feel like its that extreme because it wasn't so bad in the first place? I admit, it took me like 3 hours the first time around because its intimidating when you don't know what you are doing. After I started from scratch? I died the first time because I forgot how much those stupid flame blades hurt, and then I got him the second time.

It's absolutely not extreme in the slightest. Three bosses got slight move adjustments. One of those was actually severely bugged, so that's a positive change. Game's still tough as nails, especially if you try to S-rank or do challenge runs.

[mad_manitou]

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

The nerf was miniscule, they changed two attacks on Balteus, slightly lowered C-Spider's resistances and tuned up it's aim a bit, and fixed a glitch that occurs while fighting Ibis that creates an instant laser beam that is impossible to dodge, no matter what. Literally nothing else was nerfed, so you would have gotten the same experience, regardless.

Like i replied to the other Raven, fighting those bosses post nerf usign the exact same build proven to be a far easier fight with even spare repair kit at then end, while minuscule changes on paper it made a huge difference in actual gameplay.

[Raven]

Originally posted by mad_manitou:

Well to give you an idea, i beaten the game on the starter frame, i just added another missile pod and changed the booster and generator. I got my sitting cushion handed to me a lot of times but managed to beat them once i learned the attack patterns.

i tried it out just for fun on the same build and while the starter rifle got a descent buff, i could beat balteus and the Spider with spare repair kits at the end of the fight.

So while they do not look like big changes on paper i assure you that fighting those made a seriously easier experience, on the same build.

I know that i got better and even got a buffed gun but the difference was far more significant than what i expected.

I can't believe I have to say this and in a weird non-negative way, but it sounds like a skill issue. Like you legit sound like you just got better. I mean, even before the nerf, I can do exactly what you just said, and I'm not even *good* at the game.

I'm one of the people that dislikes changing my build, and things I struggled greatly with over time just...weren't such a struggle. I *HATE* the wheel enemies, I had to make a few posts on here on what to do about them. I got to the point I didn't even need to cheese them anymore with flamethrower or bazookas, I just got better at dodging and hitting them back. There was no nerf or anything, I just got way better at the attack patterns.

so I ask again, are you SURE the nerf is the big deal you're making it? I guess I should just go play for myself, it would be faster than just asking, but your example is honestly like I said: a skill issue where you just got better rather than any kind of reflection of being just a nerf. The nerf plays a part, for sure, but you also sound like you did your dues to just be better overall.

[Tsar Platinum]

Originally posted by Raven:

Originally posted by Magos Dominus:

I'm indifferent. I struggled on the first playthrough quite a bit but never did again for any other attempt. New players will have the exact same experience because the thing that will get you killed during these fights (especially for Balteus and Sea Spider) is your general lack of experience and amount of parts.

Honestly I don't think they needed changes, but I don't really care. The only boss that I think would need a change was the tutorial chopper. It's a bit silly that it can leave the arena, leaving you with virtually no way to counter attack and potentially getting you killed because of the invisible walls.

Man, screw that helicopter. Of all the missions to S rank, the freaking tutorial is in my top 3 hardest just because of the damn out of bounds crap

It took me 2 tries to beat the tutorial for S-Rank purely because the invisible wall got me killed and I'm still salty about it.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by mad_manitou:

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

The nerf was miniscule, they changed two attacks on Balteus, slightly lowered C-Spider's resistances and tuned up it's aim a bit, and fixed a glitch that occurs while fighting Ibis that creates an instant laser beam that is impossible to dodge, no matter what. Literally nothing else was nerfed, so you would have gotten the same experience, regardless.

Like i replied to the other Raven, fighting those bosses post nerf usign the exact same build proven to be a far easier fight with even spare repair kit at then end, while minuscule changes on paper it made a huge difference in actual gameplay.

I'm talking from gameplay, not on paper. It's not a huge difference. Fought the bosses numerous times on 1.01, did 2 more playthroughs on 1.02 and the difference was marginal, at best. More sensationalism, I say.

[This PC]

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

It's absolutely not extreme in the slightest. Three bosses got slight move adjustments. One of those was actually severely bugged, so that's a positive change. Game's still tough as nails, especially if you try to S-rank or do challenge runs.

Just dropped by to take a look at my other posts, welp, I saw this, couldn't help. :D
From has been coy about what the changes really are, a dataminer found out, and I tested these changes myself. There's 1h15 bit of footage where I ate just about every single of Ibis' attacks pre-patch, if people want to test its other attacks. Ibis' damage is consistent on her attacks, it can't be resisted and you'll get same damage across builds on all of them afaik. Of course it's hard to have a discussion when from isn't even willing to tell us really what's up. Here's the datamined info:

Balteus Seems to have worse homing on many projectiles, I assume primarily the missiles.

Ibis CEL 240 deals significantly less damage with many, many attacks. Anywhere from -15% to -25%. EXTREMELY harsh, but not completely unwarranted imo.

I can back up the ibis info with my own footage.
https://www.youtube.com/live/cY0_wbrId00
At 9 seconds, I am getting slashed by ibis for 2158 damage. This is with a heavy chest, prior to patch.
Here's some more: https://youtube.com/live/imM2ehgIqRc
Yet more, with a completely different, superlight build, still 2158:
https://www.youtube.com/live/Oh-XKK1o0wE at about 35 secs.

https://www.youtube.com/live/XUj4ZQNJ3qI
At about the same timestamp, am getting slashed by Ibis with the same attack for 1835 damage, with a lighter chest to boot, after patch. There's just a general feeling that I'm getting much less damage than in the latter footage as well. I'm getting hit by major beam at 29 secs and just laughing it off.
Here's more, with the build I had up there: https://youtube.com/live/ZEZJXq1oUE8 - still 1835, coral damage isn't affected by resistances, doesn't matter which build we use.

If that info checks out, am inclined to trust the other info as well.
I do believe there's a post floating around where someone tested the C-Spider info as well.

In a bit of a departure vs the other 2 bosses, C-Spider seems to be more vulnerable to most damage types, especially energy and explosives.

Damage received multipliers:
Kinetic: x1.07 -> x1.14
Energy: x0.79 -> x1.07
Explosive: x0.72 -> x0.93

Source: https://twitter.com/king_bore_haha/status/1701109591797649831

Even the dataminer says they're extreme.
Not gonna debate whether they're warranted or not, am past that, but I at least want to give you all the information on what's really up so you can have an honest debate.
Have a nice day everyone, and remember that cooler heads prevail. ♥

[2olluxander]

Originally posted by mad_manitou:

Like i replied to the other Raven, fighting those bosses post nerf usign the exact same build proven to be a far easier fight with even spare repair kit at then end, while minuscule changes on paper it made a huge difference in actual gameplay.

Are you sure you haven't just gotten better at the game? After doing the Balteus fight for the first time, you get a lot of chances to learn and improve before doing it again. I lost count of how many times it took me to beat it on my first playthrough, but now I could probably do it again first try with the same build - with or without the nerf.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by This PC:

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

It's absolutely not extreme in the slightest. Three bosses got slight move adjustments. One of those was actually severely bugged, so that's a positive change. Game's still tough as nails, especially if you try to S-rank or do challenge runs.

Just dropped by to take a look at my other posts, welp, I saw this, couldn't help. :D
From has been coy about what the changes really are, a dataminer found out, and I tested these changes myself. There's 1h15 bit of footage where I ate just about every single of Ibis' attack, if people want to test its other attacks. Ibis' damage is consistent on her attacks, it can't be resisted and you'll get same damage across builds on all of them afaik. Of course it's hard to have a discussion when from isn't even willing to tell us really what's up. Here's the datamined info:

Balteus Seems to have worse homing on many projectiles, I assume primarily the missiles.

Ibis CEL 240 deals significantly less damage with many, many attacks. Anywhere from -15% to -25%. EXTREMELY harsh, but not completely unwarranted imo.

I can back up the ibis info with my own footage.
https://www.youtube.com/live/cY0_wbrId00
At 9 seconds, I am getting slashed by ibis for 2158 damage. This is with a heavy chest, prior to patch.
Here's some more: https://youtube.com/live/imM2ehgIqRc
Yet more, with a completely different, superlight build, still 2158:
https://www.youtube.com/live/Oh-XKK1o0wE at about 35 secs.

https://www.youtube.com/live/XUj4ZQNJ3qI
At about the same timestamp, am getting slashed by Ibis with the same attack for 1835 damage, with a lighter chest to boot, after patch. There's just a general feeling that I'm getting much less damage than in the latter footage as well. I'm getting hit by major beam at 29 secs and just laughing it off.
Here's more, with the build I had up there: https://youtube.com/live/ZEZJXq1oUE8 - still 1835, coral damage isn't affected by resistances, doesn't matter which build we use.

If that info checks out, am inclined to trust the other info as well.
I do believe there's a post floating around where someone tested the C-Spider info as well.

In a bit of a departure vs the other 2 bosses, C-Spider seems to be more vulnerable to most damage types, especially energy and explosives.

Damage received multipliers:
Kinetic: x1.07 -> x1.14
Energy: x0.79 -> x1.07
Explosive: x0.72 -> x0.93

Source: https://twitter.com/king_bore_haha/status/1701109591797649831

Even the dataminer says they're extreme.

You mean the post where he says:

Take some of this with a grain of salt since the data formats are not quite as accurate as they were in Elden Ring.