Armored Core 6 PvP Critique

[龍ころし | EXWildWolf]

So playing around 700+ matches in total in both Ranked(reached A4 and on S Promotion) and Casual, I want to give my critique. I have messed with a lot of builds, ranging from meta stuff like BVO and Laser Tank to Unorthodox Builds like an all explosive, mid-range build, to some common builds like pulse/pilebunker and heavy bi-ped all 4 machineguns equipped builds. I've been playing since I got to Mission 3, with a mediocre understanding on how builds work. As such, I decided to look at what was good in PVE (for 1v1 AC Fights) and Arena, to see what was the most effective, yet consistent builds I could make, with some advice from friends and the ACVI discord, as well as PVP tips. So let's get onto some points I a have.

Also I'm not going to get into nitpicky details about stuff like hard-lock, weapon reloading, and the meta build/counterpicking of the game. I really don't mind the counterpicking as much as, even though's pretty RPS on ranked. And hey, if I can counterpick/play these builds like my opponent can, I don't see much of an issue since I can do them just as dirty as they can do me. And plus the meta isn't so bad where you can't just outright beat them.

What's good about the current state of PVP:
Even though this is generally of those games that have some pretty obnoxious meta builds after a few months of discovery and figuring out what's good, it still requires some skill from the player, and if you are good enough, you can beat just about any build in the game with enough practice and gained intuition.

The depth of the strategy and scenarios you find yourself playing PVP in are some of the most fun and engaging action sequences I have been looking for since S4 League. The fast paced action, the different ways you can approach in the 3D space like Using cover to dodge rat tank missiles and getting in with a high speed build, is quite amazing. The game overall is honestly really well designed in terms of combat. Maps give for a lot of variety in playstyles and tactics that make the game very dynamic.

Ranked honestly really brings the potential out of this game and I wish it was put in day 1. I've had a lot of crazy fun with fighting crazy builds that work, like a GameCube AC I ran into on Ranked. It also helps to separate the people who want to try new builds/lab stuff out and the more casual audience from the people who want a good challenge. Ranked is also VERY much a better indicator of how good you are at the game because of the win conditions (You have to win 50% of your matches during the Promotion Phase to get to A, and 80% of your matches to S). And if you don't meet them, you have to restart the promotion phase all over again.I ran into some S-players in B rank and I got dumpstered faster than the current US economy right now. It's honestly a really good system that people don't give it enough credit for.

This game feels really great and fun to play with others, and is currently my preferred multiplayer game outside of fighting games.

What's bad about the current state of PVP:
I'm not too familiar with what was good, viable or bad in past AC games' pvp modes. I do however know from tidbits of previous vets from that when it came to key components like the overall frame of your mech, people generally stuck with one to generators cuz all the other ones couldn't compete. Or a certain set of bi-ped legs that just outright outclassed all other bi-ped legs in every single way possible. I can definitely say that is not the case for this game. There are definitely maybe 1 or 2 outliers in terms of frame parts that are just... well, bad. But most generators and legs serve their purpose and are used plenty for any scenario or build you're looking to make. The new Lammergheier AC frame parts that was released a few months ago certainly proved that they know main frame parts are important and have much in the way in terms of creativity.


The weapon balance however is... very polarizing and uneven to say the least. Melee builds, and overall melee weapons are overall very weak in terms of their use case and what they accomplish. They have too much going against them to be viable and they feel like they have some sort of shackles with demolition balls attached to them. The first glaring issue is that they're slow as hell. Why is it that there's such a huge delay in the startup on these attacks? The only fast one of these weapons is the HMMR, and that's it. If you can even hit people with that thing if they're not infront of your face perfectly parallel to you. They have such god awful tracking, that some weapons like Lance and Slicer have very memey moments where they don't hit at all if you hit an opponent from an higher or lower position. It kinda feels like they did this because they were afraid how stagger works, and if that wasn't the case, they would have buffed the start-up by now. Double Melee build could honestly be viable if they adjust not just melee weapons, but some system elements as well.

We gotta talk about some other weapons that cause obnoxious ♥♥♥♥ like laser tanks and Kite Rats. Explosives hitboxes are WAY bigger than they seem or just REALLY good online. Dodging Ear shot yet still getting hit by one the exploding AOE hitboxes near it when you're NOWHERE even close to it is frankly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. And, let's be real, some weapons are clearly better than others. There's very few cases where I sat and thought "why use Sweet 16 over Zim or Curtis over Harris? Why use Laser Slicer when I could use Pile Bunker? Why attach a Shao Wei when Huxley is barely anymore EN starved and heavy?"

Also one thing I don't enjoy about the game in a pvp setting is that it is a "checkmate" heavy game. What I mean by this is that there are too many scenarios, like when someone has terminal armor and someone else is running pulse, they pop pulse right as they get opponents terminal to full, or if they have enough health, they can tank a hit, wait for terminal to hit, pop pulse, draining their terminal bar, and then proceeding to win the game. And I think this all has to do with how stagger works.

Stagger is way too easy to get for a LOT of builds in the game. It's a pretty good catalyst for leading into these checkmate situations that are very prevalent. Not that it doesn't reward good plays or decisions, but it rewards them TOO much. High stagger builds are generally a common feature among most meta ACs, as well as melee builds. What's that? You went up against shotgun swap heavy bi-ped, opponent got close and decided to blast some buckshot into you only after 1 swap? Congrats, you just got staggered and lost 80% of your health off 1 interaction. Not very healthy for such a simple strategy. Don't get me wrong, it should still be a way to play but it shouldn't lead to such good reward like that.

Also for the love of god, Ranked is good, but casual matchmaking? Garbage. Why is it just lobbies? Do you really think I want to be in the lobby playing against the same 5 people all the time? At least with a traditional quick match, I can play those same random 5 people, + way more outside of them, in as easy as 4 button clicks. It honestly is probably why this game probably isn't as popular as it could be (niche as hell Mech action game being played this much as is, but still) with people just having to cue up in some strangers' lobby. It is just really dumb, and kills the overall experiences you get from the game.


What should be looked at:
The overall system design I think is good. I just think some things need to be adjusted in the overall grand scheme of things to make builds either more fair/interestingly or viable. As well as overall balance the game's interactions. Reduce Stagger overall, Reduce overall duration of startup of melee and better tracking (if possible, you could make the melee weapons fast start-up moves with terrible recovery on whiff). Reduce the hitboxes of certain explosives/AOE followup attacks.

Also what could open the game up more is giving more options for assault boosting. Why can you only just boost shift left and right? Add an up and down movement option as well.
As well as for regular boost shifting as well.


That's all I have for now. Let me know what you guys think with replies down below.

Hello everyone. I've read your comments and I do like some of the videos put down below.
As far as the people complaining about somethings I just don't understand that are hated on.
A primary one I found being hardlock. I can tell you right now that there are MANY scenarios where depending on your weapon build that you should not be hardlocked onto your opponent. Especially when it comes to something that carries risk if done improperly. A prime example are kite rats. The build is all about getting away from your opponent as quickly as possible. The more experienced Kite rats are known for even just forgetting about building up stagger bar to get some good damage or finish their enemy off. The kite rat always wants you in a situation to where it can safely try to missile spam. It just gets damage that way and they you don't know how to deal with it, you're as good as drowned in SOUPS and double LCS/EarShot.

[Gerbera]

Bro put this on audible lol I ain't reading alla dat

But I'm sure your contribution is great nonetheless



EDIT: I finally read most of it!

And I agree fully with everything you say tbh and the way you worded it really sounds as tho it comes from experience. The part with Stagger in relation to slow melee animations seems to have been, as you said, to compensate for the stagger system. I think as the comment below suggest, stagger is great, but not really against AC's as the damage especially during staggers are absurd atm to say the least.

How stagger should be fixed? Well for starters the damage multipliers should be carried down a bit against ACs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We9vIlS6vA8

^This video here is basically what primarily needs to be done first with the stagger system if From wants to keep it. Primarily as I said, that ridiculous damage multiplier.



As for speeding up melee? Maybe make it like 50% faster and have it be an expensive OS upgrade, making it an upgrade that could make sense with player progression. Like the player and the enemies are slower at first but they get faster later in the game.

[hollow]

stagger needs a whole rework.
a mechanic built for bosses doesnt work well against other AC/players.

[D. Flame]

It's just bad. Lag and the heavy stagger focus makes it unfun AF. That's why it died almost immediately.

Stagger wasn't fun in the campaign and it is even less fun in PvP. Making it punish slow heavies that were already overly punished by it was just adding more asinine fuel to the asinine fire.

Heavies are already tanking hits that lights are dodging, so it doesn't make sense. Not to mention Rats. You finally manage to stagger them, then they are already gone again before you can capitalize. Tanks having more health doesn't counter balance it either, since you can take out like 90%+ of their health after a single stagger.

[༄♞༄ | doyii]

<3

[Gerbera]

Origineel geplaatst door D. Flame:

It's just bad. Lag and the heavy stagger focus makes it unfun AF. That's why it died almost immediately.

Stagger wasn't fun in the campaign and it is even less fun in PvP. Making it punish slow heavies that were already overly punished by it was just adding more asinine fuel to the asinine fire.

D Flame as usual always injecting his negativity whenever he could lol. Now I don't disagree with him at all with stagger's damage numbers against heavies and such but I am looking at those highlighted text along with everything else D Flame thinks of AC6. In his review, in his other posts and how Daemon X Machina is the second coming of our lord and savior in comparison to this game.

Bro

if you don't like the game, why are you even here?

All I'm saying is that if you don't like something, move on from it or come back 7th gen when it probably changes.

But whatever yes you do you I guess.

[Kain]

Cool review, can't talk about the pvp and I can't say I loved every aspect of the game, but then again nothing is perfect. Having said that it was my favorite action game of last year.

My gripes are mostly related to how easy the missions are and how trivial any non AC or other boss enemies are, plus, i don't think the stagger mechanic works fits this kind of game I would have preferred a refined heat system from AC3 or Nexus, Nexus forwards in particular has a resemblance to the stagger, but I thought it was better implemented in draining you energy, hell even a MechWarrior which it literally just shuts down your AC would have worked better.

I also thought it was probably just a bit shorter than I expected and each ng cycle although fun and added new story elements, in terms of mission it just a lot of rethread of the same content, NG+ being the weakest and NG++ picking things up a bit.

Still, the controls, the story, the customization almost everything is top tier.

[Gerbera]

Origineel geplaatst door Kain:

Cool review, can't talk about the pvp and I can't say I loved every aspect of the game, but then again nothing is perfect. Having said that it was my favorite action game of last year.

My gripes are mostly related to how easy the missions are and how trivial any non AC or other boss enemies are, plus, i don't think the stagger mechanic works fits this kind of game I would have preferred a refined heat system from AC3 or Nexus, Nexus forwards in particular has a resemblance to the stagger, but I thought it was better implemented in draining you energy, hell even a MechWarrior which it literally just shuts down your AC would have worked better.

I also thought it was probably just a bit shorter than I expected and each ng cycle although fun and added new story elements, in terms of mission it just a lot of rethread of the same content, NG+ being the weakest and NG++ picking things up a bit.

Still, the controls, the story, the customization almost everything is top tier.

Yo can you link a video or two either explaining or showing this system in action? I am very intrigued by it right now and would like to see it.

[Kain]

Origineel geplaatst door Gerbera:

Origineel geplaatst door Kain:

Cool review, can't talk about the pvp and I can't say I loved every aspect of the game, but then again nothing is perfect. Having said that it was my favorite action game of last year.

My gripes are mostly related to how easy the missions are and how trivial any non AC or other boss enemies are, plus, i don't think the stagger mechanic works fits this kind of game I would have preferred a refined heat system from AC3 or Nexus, Nexus forwards in particular has a resemblance to the stagger, but I thought it was better implemented in draining you energy, hell even a MechWarrior which it literally just shuts down your AC would have worked better.

I also thought it was probably just a bit shorter than I expected and each ng cycle although fun and added new story elements, in terms of mission it just a lot of rethread of the same content, NG+ being the weakest and NG++ picking things up a bit.

Still, the controls, the story, the customization almost everything is top tier.

Yo can you link a video or two either explaining or showing this system in action? I am very intrigued by it right now and would like to see it.

I know only one I remember specifically talking about it though is this one, unlike me, he didn't like it though lol.

https://youtu.be/nFuhipwZ618?si=E9jwJDFfF7r-WzZv

Around minute 10.

He has a series about it, it's nothing deep since he is playing each game one after the other, but it's cool for people who wants to know about the series.

[Gerbera]

Origineel geplaatst door Kain:

Origineel geplaatst door Gerbera:

Yo can you link a video or two either explaining or showing this system in action? I am very intrigued by it right now and would like to see it.

I know only one I remember specifically talking about it though is this one, unlike me, he didn't like it though lol.

https://youtu.be/nFuhipwZ618?si=E9jwJDFfF7r-WzZv

Around minute 10.

He has a series about it, it's nothing deep since he is playing each game one after the other, but it's cool for people who wants to know about the series.

Thank you thank you. Here is a heart. Don't ask where I got it from.

[TangoLimaRomeo]

The best way to balance PVP is to remove it and focus on the interesting part of the game.

[Blackmage]

Armored Core has always had notable power disparities between parts and weapons. The only gun in gaming I know of more broken than the Karasawa in the original game is the BFG-9000.

PvP has always come secondary with Armored Core. AC6 clearly had a little more thought put into it. It's one of the reasons behind the hard-lock. It's supposed to plateau the skill gap between experienced and new players in order to make your build more meaningful.
The problem with this approach is the weapons and stagger are already unbalanced AF. The unforeseen consequence is by killing the skill factor with hardlock is they made already powerful weapons even more powerful.

Stagger is a ♥♥♥♥ mechanic, and does not make any logical sense in a mecha. Pumping 1000 rounds of 7.62 from a M134 at an M1A1 Abrams tank doesn't cause it to stall for 5 seconds and then magically un-stall.

[REhorror]

Origineel geplaatst door Blackmage:

Armored Core has always had notable power disparities between parts and weapons. The only gun in gaming I know of more broken than the Karasawa in the original game is the BFG-9000.

PvP has always come secondary with Armored Core. AC6 clearly had a little more thought put into it. It's one of the reasons behind the hard-lock. It's supposed to plateau the skill gap between experienced and new players in order to make your build more meaningful.
The problem with this approach is the weapons and stagger are already unbalanced AF. The unforeseen consequence is by killing the skill factor with hardlock is they made already powerful weapons even more powerful.

Stagger is a ♥♥♥♥ mechanic, and does not make any logical sense in a mecha. Pumping 1000 rounds of 7.62 from a M134 at an M1A1 Abrams tank doesn't cause it to stall for 5 seconds and then magically un-stall.

Meanwhile in reality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOlyytCzWkU

A single drone can not only disable the Abrams but straight out kill it. Abrams are soft as ♥♥♥♥ in the top armor.

I'd say the stagger is fair and realistic.

[bigbiggaboo]

Does the pvp have similar jank to souls games? Stuff like aim punch, input drops, or weird tech. I'm thinking about getting this game but I wanted to know more about the pvp and you seem pretty knowledgeable on it. Also does pvp have multiple modes other than like 1v1 or 3v3?

[Patryk Ocurra]

Yeah stagger is a real vibe killer when I'm playing. Especially cancer on dual shotguns with kick spam. Like I'm so over it that I've gone back to kicking double shotgun builds like it's September 2023. What makes it so much worse is that there's no way to fix it without gutting shotguns since the core mechanics just means that assault boosting, kick spamming, shotgun rushing will likely always be viable. Maybe they just need to nerf the hell out of shotgun stagger and have them be like close range lasers, tonnes of damage with relatively low stagger.

Weapon balance is another weird one where there are some really really bad outliers and head scratching at the math. Ransetsu-AR is probably the worst case now that Therapists are usable.

[龍ころし | EXWildWolf]

Origineel geplaatst door Patryk Ocurra:

Yeah stagger is a real vibe killer when I'm playing. Especially cancer on dual shotguns with kick spam. Like I'm so over it that I've gone back to kicking double shotgun builds like it's September 2023. What makes it so much worse is that there's no way to fix it without gutting shotguns since the core mechanics just means that assault boosting, kick spamming, shotgun rushing will likely always be viable. Maybe they just need to nerf the hell out of shotgun stagger and have them be like close range lasers, tonnes of damage with relatively low stagger.

Weapon balance is another weird one where there are some really really bad outliers and head scratching at the math. Ransetsu-AR is probably the worst case now that Therapists are usable.

I honestly really do think they need to adjust stagger so that you get it less and you're not dealing with obnoxious ass ♥♥♥♥ like majestic tanks with LCBs back in the last patch(god ♥♥♥♥ no). It's way too easy to get and causes way too much polarization in viability with all sorts of builds.