Why does terminal armor exist? (In PVP)

[Verax]

Other than to be cringe.

[D. Flame]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Broadsword:

(in 1v1) I think there's an argument to be said that PA and AA have this specific thing where they both have to be used right to be effective. You can't just pop either, you have to time it right, and depending on the circumstances, it's easily trumped by a counter-usage.

I don't really see this applying to TA and while I see strategies to counter it (which can be summed up as having the most AP possible before it activates through whatever means applicable/necessary), I think it's highly disruptive and so bad that I don't really even want to touch 3v3 specifically because of knowing how much I'm going to deal with it.

Incorrect. You can activate them whenever you want. PA is almost never used as a defense tool. I only ever saw it used to drop ACS build up, and you don't need expert timing for that.

Assault armor, which is what I primarily used, is just another attack. It's literally just another attack, so you can literally just toss it out whenever you want to squeeze out another attack. There is nothing overly-complex about it.

Meanwhile, AA decides on its own when to activate. If your opponent is better than you, and they have like a quarter of their health or more remaining, you are unlikely to be able to turn that around in a few seconds, especially now that they are fully on the defensive. This is why you see a lot of people have their TA activate then they just stand still. They are basically tipping their king over in chess. They already accepted that they lost, and just want to get on to the next round.

So even if one party uses TA, the more skilled (or more laggy) player is going to win.

[Verax]

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Broadsword:

(in 1v1) I think there's an argument to be said that PA and AA have this specific thing where they both have to be used right to be effective. You can't just pop either, you have to time it right, and depending on the circumstances, it's easily trumped by a counter-usage.

I don't really see this applying to TA and while I see strategies to counter it (which can be summed up as having the most AP possible before it activates through whatever means applicable/necessary), I think it's highly disruptive and so bad that I don't really even want to touch 3v3 specifically because of knowing how much I'm going to deal with it.

Incorrect. You can activate them whenever you want. PA is almost never used as a defense tool. I only ever saw it used to drop ACS build up, and you don't need expert timing for that.

Assault armor, which is what I primarily used, is just another attack. It's literally just another attack, so you can literally just toss it out whenever you want to squeeze out another attack. There is nothing overly-complex about it.

Meanwhile, AA decides on its own when to activate. If your opponent is better than you, and they have like a quarter of their health or more remaining, you are unlikely to be able to turn that around in a few seconds, especially now that they are fully on the defensive. This is why you see a lot of people have their TA activate then they just stand still. They are basically tipping their king over in chess. They already accepted that they lost, and just want to get on to the next round.

So even if one party uses TA, the more skilled (or more laggy) player is going to win.

You didn't understand what he said. He's saying you have to be strategic with when you pop PA or AA in order to make good use of them. Not only is precise timing sometimes the difference but also being in good position with full EN to make use of something like PA for offense. People inadvertently waste expansions all the time because it actually requires doing something. With TA, all the player has to do is try to be close when when they're getting close to dead. That kind of strategy is braindead-- hardly deserves to be called one.

Since you've stated that you don't play PVP, you don't have any insight to offer on this. You also have no personal stake in the discussion for the same reason-- not like this discussion is likely to cause any change so I can't imagine what is motivating you to continuing arguing and trolling. I would appreciate it if you would leave me alone and stop commenting on my post. You just came here to argue, succeeded once in getting a rise, now go.

[D. Flame]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Verax:

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

Incorrect. You can activate them whenever you want. PA is almost never used as a defense tool. I only ever saw it used to drop ACS build up, and you don't need expert timing for that.

Assault armor, which is what I primarily used, is just another attack. It's literally just another attack, so you can literally just toss it out whenever you want to squeeze out another attack. There is nothing overly-complex about it.

Meanwhile, AA decides on its own when to activate. If your opponent is better than you, and they have like a quarter of their health or more remaining, you are unlikely to be able to turn that around in a few seconds, especially now that they are fully on the defensive. This is why you see a lot of people have their TA activate then they just stand still. They are basically tipping their king over in chess. They already accepted that they lost, and just want to get on to the next round.

So even if one party uses TA, the more skilled (or more laggy) player is going to win.

You didn't understand what he said. He's saying you have to be strategic with when you pop PA or AA in order to make good use of them. Not only is precise timing sometimes the difference but also being in good position with full EN to make use of something like PA for offense. People inadvertently waste expansions all the time because it actually requires doing something. With TA, all the player has to do is try to be close when when they're getting close to dead. That kind of strategy is braindead-- hardly deserves to be called one.

Since you've stated that you don't play PVP, you don't have any insight to offer on this. You also have no personal stake in the discussion for the same reason-- not like this discussion is likely to cause any change so I can't imagine what is motivating you to continuing arguing and trolling. I would appreciate it if you would leave me alone and stop commenting on my post. You just came here to argue, succeeded once in getting a rise, now go.

I got to C rank in 3 play sessions when the best players in the World, who were playing constantly, were only at B rank, and this is a public forum as well, meaning that I have just as much right to post here as anyone else.

Furthermore, you replied to a post that wasn't even quoting you. You replied to my post. If you don't want to see my posts then just block me. It's not hard. Just hover your mouse over my post, you'll see some drop down arrows popup in the top right of the post, and one of the options will say "Block" then you can just click that.

And honestly, rank means nothing in this game. Unless they add proper disconnect punishment, fix their net code, and you make it to the top 100 on the leader boards, then it doesn't mean a thing.

[D. Flame]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Verax:

I've already blocked you

Cool, problem solved.

[Dakota]

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Broadsword:

(in 1v1) I think there's an argument to be said that PA and AA have this specific thing where they both have to be used right to be effective. You can't just pop either, you have to time it right, and depending on the circumstances, it's easily trumped by a counter-usage.

I don't really see this applying to TA and while I see strategies to counter it (which can be summed up as having the most AP possible before it activates through whatever means applicable/necessary), I think it's highly disruptive and so bad that I don't really even want to touch 3v3 specifically because of knowing how much I'm going to deal with it.

Incorrect. You can activate them whenever you want. PA is almost never used as a defense tool. I only ever saw it used to drop ACS build up, and you don't need expert timing for that.

Assault armor, which is what I primarily used, is just another attack. It's literally just another attack, so you can literally just toss it out whenever you want to squeeze out another attack. There is nothing overly-complex about it.

Meanwhile, AA decides on its own when to activate. If your opponent is better than you, and they have like a quarter of their health or more remaining, you are unlikely to be able to turn that around in a few seconds, especially now that they are fully on the defensive. This is why you see a lot of people have their TA activate then they just stand still. They are basically tipping their king over in chess. They already accepted that they lost, and just want to get on to the next round.

So even if one party uses TA, the more skilled (or more laggy) player is going to win.

I don't mean to be rude here, but these things you're saying are only remotely true at very low levels of play. You've mentioned you only ever experienced PvP up to C tier, it only takes breaking even with a 50-50 win rate to be in A tier. Even then there's a massive skill gap between A and S, not to mention even then S rank was filled with over a thousand players who then had a large skill gap between them and higher level play seen in tournaments.

Pulse armor is only used to ACS reset at its worst usage. It should be used before becoming staggered to entirely prevent someone from being able to stagger you in the first place. You should also be using it on your own terms instead of the enemy's so that you can ensure you have a full energy bar and can then use pulse armor to go on the aggressive for a moment while in a state where you can't be staggered for a couple seconds until the enemy takes it down (it only has about 3.3k health instead of 20k compared to terminal ontop of having a max time of 10 seconds, so you can actually easily take it down in a fight). During this time you should be trying to raise your opponent's stagger bar quickly and force them into using their pulse armor in bad timing, such as while they don't have much energy due to trying to run from you or trying to reset their stagger but it's too late.

Assault armor similarly is not something to be used as "just another attack" unless you want to just entirely waste it. The main utilities it has is reversals, combos, combo extensions, and most importantly mind games. With assault armor you can reversal an enemy by using it when they expect to punish you if they are a close range build, especially a melee build or shotgun+kicks focused build, pop it on them before they hit you and cause them to be staggered, prevent yourself from taking the punish damage, then go in for your own punish and/or force them to pop PA in the process. Alternatively it punishes bad use of PA such as on ACS overload by removing their PA and filling their stagger back up, which can allow a melee combo to extend if they tried to PA while being melee'd, it's important in such situations to just take the melee hit instead of popping PA there if you know the enemy has AA since if you pop PA they will just trigger AA and combo you again and you take much more damage. If you're fighting terminal and know they have no combo breaking options like AA or PA of their own then you should use AA for a combo extension where possible, use it right after their stagger recovers but they're still close from a prior attack to re stagger the enemy and punish them again so you can get an AP lead to potentially survive their terminal phase. The mind games segment is important as if the enemy knows you have AA then they know they cannot safely do kick or melee punishes and may hesitate or attempt to bait out your AA which can lose them the opportunity to punish in the short time window available.

Just about every competitive build that is close ranged has the capability to kill an AC in approximately 5 seconds from full, that's kinda the requirements to survive as a close range build. The only thing that prevents this is lots of dodging, shielding, or excessively durable builds such as tanks. Many builds are "touch of death" combos too, for example if you're hit by a charged wuerger you get mini staggered, a charged harris then can hit you afterwards to fully stagger you without you having a chance to dodge, then they can punish with any number of options where you'll take anywhere from 4k to 10k more damage depending on how much risk they want to put into it ontop of the 2-3k damage you took just getting staggered. Alternatively dual zimm builds where they shoot, kick, shoot and will have you staggered by that point and can repeat the shoot and kick for similarly devastating damage. There's many many other builds in this list that do similar output so I won't bother listing them all and will instead skip to explaining pulse armor vs terminal here.

The use case of pulse armor would be you use it at a stage where you can prevent yourself from being staggered and so you prevent an enemy combo and have what is effectively about 2 seconds worth of health that the enemy will burn through to start fighting you again. The enemy can get shots on you while you're putting it up but you can use it to at least prevent a full stagger punish, this can vary heavily in how much it really ends up protecting you from, and due to having a start up animation (unlike terminal) the enemy is given a substantial headstart to run away so they can wait out your pulse armor so it acts purely as a reset. In comparison, with terminal you essentially can immediately kill your opponent upon them hitting you with a killing blow, especially if they're in an animation lock such as a kick or melee that delays them being able to evade, and even a quickboost away immediately from shotgun ranges would still leave someone in effective range for a punish with ocellus FCS. This in turn causes terminal to be an automatic reversal option available against melee builds filling a similar role to assault armor in those cases, while also having the defensive rush ability of pulse armor but on steroids giving you a functional 5 seconds to just go ham on the enemy and hunt them down.

Essentially it pushes builds more into the realm of staying at range with passive play to avoid being in such situations where they'd have to face it to begin with. There's been good debate over such passive play and the potential negatives it has on the community in general given it ends up inflating match times to timer limits and is generally very slow to watch for viewers and many players despise the playstyle and it is a leading cause of disconnects in ranked. Of course on the flip side, such builds in close range that end up something that opponents can't really do anything against in close range assuming similar skill level of players pushes away many alternate playstyles and it becomes a game of trying to take away as much control from the enemy as possible just to avoid these consequences. In short there's many balance issues within the game mechanics at play here that lead to gameplay that ends up repulsing a good amount of players. As an additional tack on, terminal armor is also a favorite of players who disconnect since the 5 seconds of invulnerability with no need to trigger it gives them ample time to quickly disconnect from a game they were losing so they end up never losing elo (or providing it to others) and can climb to the top of leaderboards.

[Verax]

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Verax:

I've already blocked you

Cool, problem solved.

I still get a notification every time. Leave me alone. You have no reason to comment here, which has been stated and elaborated on multiple times now.

[D. Flame]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Dakota:

Pulse armor is only used to ACS reset at its worst usage.

You literally see the top ranked players doing it in their Youtube videos. You also see them explaining that is its best use.

Assault armor similarly is not something to be used as "just another attack" unless you want to just entirely waste it. The main utilities it has is reversals, combos, combo extensions

So it's not just another attack, but its main utilities are just another attacks? LOL, wut? What you do think a combo extension is? It's literally just another attack tacked on to the end of your combo when your other attacks are on cool down.

[Dakota]

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Dakota:

Pulse armor is only used to ACS reset at its worst usage.

You literally see the top ranked players doing it in their Youtube videos. You also see them explaining that is its best use.

Seeing someone do it does not mean it is a good usage of it. Someone can be forced to use it at an improper time with heavy levels of aggression, and then they'll be pushed onto a disadvantage, but using it at a bad time is better than not using it at all so they have to use it not to die.

In any case, be careful about just getting your info from youtubers, most of them don't really know much about what they're talking about and just say clickbaity stuff to get views. If you'd actually like to know more, I recommend looking into the tournament scene, perhaps talking and playing with some of the competitive players, or at least just understanding the mechanics as I've explained them to see that clearly there's much more ideal times to use pulse armor other than just using it the moment you get staggered, which still gets you hit by most punishes because of the animation to get it up. Infact there's competitive builds built around destroying people who mess up on that in one go such as dual charged fasans having their DoT go through pulse armor when someone triggers it because it hits during the animation and does its damage while you're locked in place and just deletes your healthbar.

[Verax]

Go away D.Flame. You don't genuinely care about this discussion. You're trolling as you have been since your first comment. Wasn't born yesterday, concern-trolling has been a thing for a long time.

[Dakota]

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Dakota:

Pulse armor is only used to ACS reset at its worst usage.

You literally see the top ranked players doing it in their Youtube videos. You also see them explaining that is its best use.

Assault armor similarly is not something to be used as "just another attack" unless you want to just entirely waste it. The main utilities it has is reversals, combos, combo extensions

So it's not just another attack, but its main utilities are just another attacks? LOL, wut? What you do think a combo extension is? It's literally just another attack tacked on to the end of your combo when your other attacks are on cool down.

I explained what a combo extension is. You truly do have no desire other than to be contrarian with quick and badly thought out "gotchas" do you? To reiterate since I suppose it is a big post, the combo extension is not placed on the end of a combo to add extra damage, the purpose is to act as something that can extend the combo for another round, for example a very basic one is if you use a laser dagger. The laser dagger has a 2 second cooldown, if you have staggered the enemy you can do the laser dagger combo on them, then you can assault armor them to stagger them again (or assault armor them if they try to break your combo with PA) and then dagger them again to continue your combo, then usually add a kick to the end of whatever your combo is when it's done since those generally push an enemy back and away from you but can add on a bit of extra damage for the end.

[Verax]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Dakota:

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

You literally see the top ranked players doing it in their Youtube videos. You also see them explaining that is its best use.


So it's not just another attack, but its main utilities are just another attacks? LOL, wut? What you do think a combo extension is? It's literally just another attack tacked on to the end of your combo when your other attacks are on cool down.

I explained what a combo extension is. You truly do have no desire other than to be contrarian with quick and badly thought out "gotchas" do you? To reiterate since I suppose it is a big post, the combo extension is not placed on the end of a combo to add extra damage, the purpose is to act as something that can extend the combo for another round, for example a very basic one is if you use a laser dagger. The laser dagger has a 2 second cooldown, if you have staggered the enemy you can do the laser dagger combo on them, then you can assault armor them to stagger them again (or assault armor them if they try to break your combo with PA) and then dagger them again to continue your combo, then usually add a kick to the end of whatever your combo is when it's done since those generally push an enemy back and away from you but can add on a bit of extra damage for the end.

Yeah! Stun baton is dope for this too!

[D. Flame]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Dakota:

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

You literally see the top ranked players doing it in their Youtube videos. You also see them explaining that is its best use.

Seeing someone do it does not mean it is a good usage of it. Someone can be forced to use it at an improper time with heavy levels of aggression, and then they'll be pushed onto a disadvantage, but using it at a bad time is better than not using it at all so they have to use it not to die.

In any case, be careful about just getting your info from youtubers, most of them don't really know much about what they're talking about and just say clickbaity stuff to get views. If you'd actually like to know more, I recommend looking into the tournament scene, perhaps talking and playing with some of the competitive players, or at least just understanding the mechanics as I've explained them to see that clearly there's much more ideal times to use pulse armor other than just using it the moment you get staggered, which still gets you hit by most punishes because of the animation to get it up. Infact there's competitive builds built around destroying people who mess up on that in one go such as dual charged fasans having their DoT go through pulse armor when someone triggers it because it hits during the animation and does its damage while you're locked in place and just deletes your healthbar.

ACS overload is literally the most dangerous thing in PVP.

-it staggers you, interrupting your own attacks
-it leaves you motionless and near completely vulnerable with a few exceptions
-you take additional damage when in this state, so someone can easily take out like 90% of your health in one combo as a result

That makes using PA to ACS dump preemptively is one the absolute best uses for it. It is the primary reason PA gets more use than any other expansion in PVP.

If you have a recording of a tournament feature only people ranked in the top 100 of S ranks, please feel free to share it. I am sure that most of us would love to see it.

[D. Flame]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Dakota:

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

You literally see the top ranked players doing it in their Youtube videos. You also see them explaining that is its best use.


So it's not just another attack, but its main utilities are just another attacks? LOL, wut? What you do think a combo extension is? It's literally just another attack tacked on to the end of your combo when your other attacks are on cool down.

I explained what a combo extension is. You truly do have no desire other than to be contrarian with quick and badly thought out "gotchas" do you? To reiterate since I suppose it is a big post, the combo extension is not placed on the end of a combo to add extra damage, the purpose is to act as something that can extend the combo for another round, for example a very basic one is if you use a laser dagger. The laser dagger has a 2 second cooldown, if you have staggered the enemy you can do the laser dagger combo on them, then you can assault armor them to stagger them again (or assault armor them if they try to break your combo with PA) and then dagger them again to continue your combo, then usually add a kick to the end of whatever your combo is when it's done since those generally push an enemy back and away from you but can add on a bit of extra damage for the end.

The term you are looking for is "reset". It is a combo reset, and even a reset is just another attack at the end of the day.

A combo extension is something that adds additional hits at a place where the combo would end. It is literally just tacking on a few extra hits.

A combo reset, just well, resets your combo, so you can do it again.

And those combo resets and other similar things are exactly why PA is so useful in terms of dropping ACS strain build up. Because a combo into a reset into a combo, especially while you are in ACS overload, is pretty much GG.

[Dakota]

Opprinnelig skrevet av D. Flame:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Dakota:

Seeing someone do it does not mean it is a good usage of it. Someone can be forced to use it at an improper time with heavy levels of aggression, and then they'll be pushed onto a disadvantage, but using it at a bad time is better than not using it at all so they have to use it not to die.

In any case, be careful about just getting your info from youtubers, most of them don't really know much about what they're talking about and just say clickbaity stuff to get views. If you'd actually like to know more, I recommend looking into the tournament scene, perhaps talking and playing with some of the competitive players, or at least just understanding the mechanics as I've explained them to see that clearly there's much more ideal times to use pulse armor other than just using it the moment you get staggered, which still gets you hit by most punishes because of the animation to get it up. Infact there's competitive builds built around destroying people who mess up on that in one go such as dual charged fasans having their DoT go through pulse armor when someone triggers it because it hits during the animation and does its damage while you're locked in place and just deletes your healthbar.

ACS overload is literally the most dangerous thing in PVP.

-it staggers you, interrupting your own attacks
-it leaves you motionless and near completely vulnerable with a few exceptions
-you take additional damage when in this state, so someone can easily take out like 90% of your health in one combo as a result

That makes using PA to ACS dump preemptively is one the absolute best uses for it. It is the primary reason PA gets more use than any other expansion in PVP.

If you have a recording of a tournament feature only people ranked in the top 100 of S ranks, please feel free to share it. I am sure that most of us would love to see it.

You essentially just reiterated what i said with the first part of that since I'd been saying this whole time that you want to use PA to prevent a stagger rather than on being staggered, since you're triggering it to prevent a stagger you can choose to do that when you're also in an advantageous position energy wise so that you can then go on the offensive because of it to then push the enemy who should be high on stagger too at this point in an attempt to get them to use it in a way that only resets their stagger and potentially prevents a punish but with no follow up.

I've also posted this before on various other threads, many of which you've also been in, but here's a channel that casts tournaments. Primarily they host on twitch but some tournaments get trimmed a bit and put on youtube too. There's also various japanese tournaments on other channels but I can't read or speak the language to really recommend one in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/@strikerhutassa/videos



The top 100 of S ranked also isn't really a useful metric for tournament play given a decent chunk of competitive players don't really bother with ranked because they found it too easy and the elo system for the numbers is extremely badly designed in the first place so it's just a really bad grind to go up mostly afforded to whoever has the most time to nolife it. For example there's a guy who was in one of the japanese tournaments I watched who ended up putting 2 accounts in the top 10 spots and who has thousands of matches in S rank because he just does nothing else but play it, ended up pushing people who win tournaments out of top 10 in S rank by grinding an alt into top 10 too, once you get one account up high you can also just stop playing it and people can't really bring it down.

[D. Flame]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Dakota:

I've also posted this before on various other threads, many of which you've also been in, but here's a channel that casts tournaments. Primarily they host on twitch but some tournaments get trimmed a bit and put on youtube too. There's also various japanese tournaments on other channels but I can't read or speak the language to really recommend one in particular.

Yeah, I am not clicking that. I asked for a link to a specific tournament, not a full list of videos on someone's youtube. Whichever one video you think best supports your argument. You have supposedly watched them. I haven't. I am not going to spend hours chasing down some nebulous argument, only to have the goal post shifted at the last moment.

I will give the video a watch if you link it, but I am not going to randomly watch all of their videos, hoping to maybe find one that "you" find valid. Point me to one specific video.

The top 100 of S ranked also isn't really a useful metric for tournament play given a decent chunk of competitive players don't really bother with ranked because they found it too easy

And yet, it is the same metric being used in this tread to try to demean and dismiss my opinions. Either rank matters or it doesn't. You can't just cherry pick examples that benefit your argument and dismiss all others.

once you get one account up high you can also just stop playing it and people can't really bring it down.

There was literally just a rank reset.