in all honesty, the game is great, but the boss balance is horrible

[Ribbons0121R121]

probably gonna get hit with a million "skill issue" comments but is there even a legitmate way to beat the bosses? beause the only methods ive found online or ingame is 100% pure real swiss cheese
in short the game is fun and the missions are great but the bosses suck ass and boil down to doom eternal kind of "difficulty"
in long, the game itself is a fun and enjoyable mech maker, you know this. even tough enemies feel fair and the minibosses are good fun, very balanced gameplay that is more skill based than part based, parts are just playstyle and fun factor
bosses on the other hand, or at least bosses from balteus onwards, are so far from fair or fun that it isnt even funny, and i have yet to find a non cheese build to beat it that doesnt require the skill equivalent of those people who play 2 player ddr machines as one person
to elaborate, bosses up to balteus are traditional bosses with boss attacks and phases and whatnot, you dodge them and attack and thats the skill factor, even behemoth who, while tough, is a fair and beatable fight with skill
anything balteus onward? cheese or using one specific weapon, starting with balteus
the main level of undodgable ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ starts with the sheer amount of missiles, you CANT dodge them all, it simply is not possible, even if you go in spiting distance and go behind him. so how do you beat this? two choices, and its a real gman choice:
1.attrition his ass with a tonk
2.stun the ♥♥♥♥ out of him for cheese
how to do this? pulse shield breaking. how to do that? litterally guess what works good against a pulse shield, a singular anti pulse shield weapon
the pulse sword you start with also works but you really gotta headbang that wall to find it out unless someone outright tells you
your only way to figure this out? some tiny icons at the bottom of the screen on weapon short descriptions with no names, no correlation or note telling you what they are, so heres the plain answer:damage types. pulse is a damage type and at the balteus stage of the game you have TWO WHOLE WEAPONS for it, one ranged one sword
next example, cleaner, two ways you can beat this boss
1.tonk again but its a lot harder
2.get a tetra build and hover above the weakpoint, unload
one option is a lot harder and relies on just living, the other is a cheese strat, there is no skill available because anything to properly dodge the attacks just doesnt boast the firepower needed unless you wanna throw hands with the giant hands boss
it more or less screams a you to just not touch the floor, and tetra is the only one able to do that, reverse joint honorable mention because it leaves a floor aoe atack that burns you to death which doesnt allow you to use that because it goes ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ EVERYWHERE
next one, sea spider, same options
1.beat it tonk(pretty much immpossible now)
2.beat it with a cheese build(ace overload stunlock)
do you see a pattern here?
sea spider is also the ultimate definition of "the ♥♥♥♥ you fusilade", it uses ALL its attacks at once, second phase makes it airborne and makes it hit you with a death beam attack, there is no such thing as dodging and no cover to use
and the cherry on top? a close range leg slam attack that doesnt even need to connect to deal damage, quite litterally have to just be way out of the way to avoid it
theres no way to build around dodging it, not even with an ultra lightweight zippity zoom build you need to avoid the space feds in the level, NO BUILD CHOICE MATTERS FOR BOSSES, NO SKILL CHOICE MATTERS FOR BOSSES, USE THIS ONE SPECIFIC COMBINATION OR DIE, thats what it tells you with gameplay punishment, its false choice experimentation
there is no great challenge to overcome, there is no bossfights to conquer, theres only specific weapon aqquirement checks with a big health pool to use them on, pretty much the ice worm missions kind of gimmick is the entire games balance for bosses in general
the only time it opens up and lets you enjoy the game is about newgame++, or 3 ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ playthroughs of the entire game when you have all the gear, and can actually pick different approaches to these fights, the most common cheese being songbirds and miniguns
otherwise the actual level gameplay scales and progresses perfectly, its a sheer contrast in comparison, tetrapod mts are the best example, the game is fair and fun there
in conclusion, the game is great and the bosses are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid equipment checks that induce convoluted wall to head engagement until you beat the game several times and get some decent equipment to face them

[hawkwind]

I know current bosses are too weak.
They should not have been nerfed. I want to fight with strong balteus again.
Now balteus can be beaten with just the first blade and knuckle and kick.

[Steve]

Цитата допису Ribbons0121R121:

snip

Addressing some of the lighter points:

* Balteus used to teach players how to time dodges better. Now it's just as easy as the first few bosses you mentioned.

* Cleaner doesn't need tetra legs. Revjoint work just as well. (Same for C-Spider.)

[Kalvix]

Цитата допису hawkwind:

I know current bosses are too weak.
They should not have been nerfed. I want to fight with strong balteus again.
Now balteus can be beaten with just the first blade and knuckle and kick.

Ah, that would explain why I was worried about fighting him, and then I beat him on my second try. I really was expecting a huge challenge, and don't get me wrong he was tough, but not a proper challenge.

And ye cleaner I beat on an agile build by just jumping backwards constantly to shoot the middle bit, then going in with melee either when he had finished a swing or was staggered.

Maybe Tetra legs work better, but you can definitely do with normal legs. Now tanks legs on that boss I will say are hard as you can't dodge anywhere near as easily, but thats why they let you swap out parts so easily and buy/sell for same price, if you think a certain build would work better use it, thats how the game is meant to work.

[D. Flame]

Цитата допису Kalvix:

Цитата допису hawkwind:

I know current bosses are too weak.
They should not have been nerfed. I want to fight with strong balteus again.
Now balteus can be beaten with just the first blade and knuckle and kick.

Ah, that would explain why I was worried about fighting him, and then I beat him on my second try. I really was expecting a huge challenge, and don't get me wrong he was tough, but not a proper challenge.

And ye cleaner I beat on an agile build by just jumping backwards constantly to shoot the middle bit, then going in with melee either when he had finished a swing or was staggered.

Maybe Tetra legs work better, but you can definitely do with normal legs. Now tanks legs on that boss I will say are hard as you can't dodge anywhere near as easily, but thats why they let you swap out parts so easily and buy/sell for same price, if you think a certain build would work better use it, thats how the game is meant to work.

He was always a joke on NG+.

[La bendision]

You need to play a speedster mech in order to fight Balteus, is the best way possible. Speedster and tetrapods are also a great way to fight the Ibis Spider btw, and also the way to fight against Series Ibis. The hardest bosses of the game are fought trhough sheer speed and getting advantage from stun phases with close range weapons.
I would reccomend you to focus on something quick and nimble and go with double Light machine guns.


Also, it is ok to just find a game that is not for you.

[GameSmashDash]

Цитата допису D. Flame:

Цитата допису GameSmashDash:

Funnily enough so many people on the casual side are having trouble XD; hell, the Sea Spider was oddly easy compared to Balt which they've been nerfing/ buffing play styles for the casuals, idk how they're having trouble when the game simplified itself down even more.

Even the BOSS I REFUSE TO SPOIL wasn't even that tough, taking a couple minutes to beat with the proper kaboom build.

The C-Spider was easy with certain gear, but it was always cheap and unfair.

Like even during its own recovery window, it was still fire auto lasers at you. You basically had no time to safely attack yourself if you were using certain loadouts.

I mean there were plenty of streamers trying to do the fight legit, dodging and all, only to get blown out. Then they switched to a tank tread setup, with chain guns and song birds, and just face tanked half the hits that they used to try to avoid. Trying to dodge and play skillfully got them bodied; just face-tanking hits let them cruise through to victory.

There is something wrong with that design.

I went a speedster/ rocket build; I never once had the laser hit me; 3rd phase of the boss did kill me a lot but honestly I'm surprised people ever got hit by that. That without that laser it would've been too easy if I'm honest.

[GameSmashDash]

Цитата допису La bendision:

You need to play a speedster mech in order to fight Balteus, is the best way possible. Speedster and tetrapods are also a great way to fight the Ibis Spider btw, and also the way to fight against Series Ibis. The hardest bosses of the game are fought trhough sheer speed and getting advantage from stun phases with close range weapons.
I would reccomend you to focus on something quick and nimble and go with double Light machine guns.


Also, it is ok to just find a game that is not for you.

♥♥♥♥ I beat Balt wrong then; I just used ranged explosive energy gun + sword and didn't go speed build.

[Virsteinn]

Цитата допису GameSmashDash:

Цитата допису La bendision:

You need to play a speedster mech in order to fight Balteus, is the best way possible. Speedster and tetrapods are also a great way to fight the Ibis Spider btw, and also the way to fight against Series Ibis. The hardest bosses of the game are fought trhough sheer speed and getting advantage from stun phases with close range weapons.
I would reccomend you to focus on something quick and nimble and go with double Light machine guns.


Also, it is ok to just find a game that is not for you.

♥♥♥♥ I beat Balt wrong then; I just used ranged explosive energy gun + sword and didn't go speed build.

Take pride, then; you did it "wrong" and still beat his ass.

[REhorror]

I like how lightweight speedster is simply NOT viable for some people, yet for some, it's the correct and OP builds.

I go from HW to LW, so I'm actually thinking more of the latter.

[D. Flame]

Цитата допису REhorror:

I like how lightweight speedster is simply NOT viable for some people, yet for some, it's the correct and OP builds.

I go from HW to LW, so I'm actually thinking more of the latter.

No one is saying light weight builds are impossible. They are just inferior to heavy and middle weights in this game in practically every way.

[Quillithe]

Цитата допису D. Flame:

Цитата допису REhorror:

I like how lightweight speedster is simply NOT viable for some people, yet for some, it's the correct and OP builds.

I go from HW to LW, so I'm actually thinking more of the latter.

No one is saying light weight builds are impossible. They are just inferior to heavy and middle weights in this game in practically every way.

In PvE at least I feel like it's the HW builds that are inferior - due to how repair kits work the extra AP isn't as good, and bosses don't exploit stagger like other players will so it's not a huge deal really.

Especially since you can still carry pretty heavy weapons around if you want anyway, they aren't that big a part of total weight.

[REhorror]

Цитата допису D. Flame:

Цитата допису REhorror:

I like how lightweight speedster is simply NOT viable for some people, yet for some, it's the correct and OP builds.

I go from HW to LW, so I'm actually thinking more of the latter.

No one is saying light weight builds are impossible. They are just inferior to heavy and middle weights in this game in practically every way.

Nope, they aren't.
In PvE, they are objectively superior for S ranking and general playing because you are less sluggish and move much smoother/faster.

[Jebe457]

Цитата допису D. Flame:

The C-Spider was easy with certain gear, but it was always cheap and unfair.

Like even during its own recovery window, it was still fire auto lasers at you. You basically had no time to safely attack yourself if you were using certain loadouts.

I mean there were plenty of streamers trying to do the fight legit, dodging and all, only to get blown out. Then they switched to a tank tread setup, with chain guns and song birds, and just face tanked half the hits that they used to try to avoid. Trying to dodge and play skillfully got them bodied; just face-tanking hits let them cruise through to victory.

There is something wrong with that design.

I did it with a Reverse Joint build with Plasma Launchers on the shoulders, Plasma Rifle, and Pulse Blade. The big dynamic, which is still present in 1.03, is that you're playing this dynamic game of popping and out of being under it during Phase 1.

Or to put it another way you're using odd angles to attack the Spinneret thingy.

[D. Flame]

Цитата допису Quillithe:

Цитата допису D. Flame:

No one is saying light weight builds are impossible. They are just inferior to heavy and middle weights in this game in practically every way.

In PvE at least I feel like it's the HW builds that are inferior - due to how repair kits work the extra AP isn't as good, and bosses don't exploit stagger like other players will so it's not a huge deal really.

Especially since you can still carry pretty heavy weapons around if you want anyway, they aren't that big a part of total weight.

The heavy weights can carry the heavier weapons, and heavier parts can let you deflect bullets as well. Spring Chicken and Wheel Chair legs are the meta leg choices for a reason.

[Blackmage]

Цитата допису Jebe457:

Цитата допису D. Flame:

The C-Spider was easy with certain gear, but it was always cheap and unfair.

Like even during its own recovery window, it was still fire auto lasers at you. You basically had no time to safely attack yourself if you were using certain loadouts.

I mean there were plenty of streamers trying to do the fight legit, dodging and all, only to get blown out. Then they switched to a tank tread setup, with chain guns and song birds, and just face tanked half the hits that they used to try to avoid. Trying to dodge and play skillfully got them bodied; just face-tanking hits let them cruise through to victory.

There is something wrong with that design.

I did it with a Reverse Joint build with Plasma Launchers on the shoulders, Plasma Rifle, and Pulse Blade. The big dynamic, which is still present in 1.03, is that you're playing this dynamic game of popping and out of being under it during Phase 1.

Or to put it another way you're using odd angles to attack the Spinneret thingy.

I found boosting towards the C-Spider actually dodged me more shots than trying to go backwards or around - and then interrupt their attacks with stagger. And I did this with biped legs. I rarely needed to use inverts, quads, or tanks. The game doesn't seem to know how to respond to that kind hyper aggression, and weapons seem to matter more than the AC itself. And that same strategy works against almost everything this game throws at you, even CEL240. So yeah, there is definitely something wrong with this game's boss design, and general balance overall.