Appreciate what you got

[Gerbera]

This game could have been plagued by the disease known as modern gaming and would have been a full on live service abomination. This game could have fumbled on its new core concept of a more up close and personal aggressive combat system and be a hollow mess that doesn't know what it wants to be.

This game has a vision and it succeeded in what it wanted to do. It isn't perfect yet. It needs some refining before it gets to a DMC5/Doom Eternal stage of godly 'perfection'. But THIS, this is a damn good start and solid foundation to something new.

This game could have easily been an Anthem 2 or a vision less mess that is Warframe (highlighted this turd as it has a lot of the core concepts of AC within it when you look more into it). Thank god it isn't and I hope Fromsoft refines this formula in the future.

TL:DR this game could have been really terrible and what we got, which isn't perfect, is a damn good start to something because of vision.

Developers having a vision for a game is what takes away that hollow feeling you get you play it and its something I've learned to appreciate, even if it isn't perfect.

[魔装機神 Psybuster]

Originally posted by Gerbera:

I mean this game does have many ways to survive already

Exactly. The biggest appeal of mecha games is choice, being able to build a machine for multiple purposes. It should be possible to make a lightweight machine that can zip around and fire from range, or to make a heavily armored wall that can absorb damage with minimal problem while punishing in return. I want to be able to build my Scopedogs and my FAZZ's alike.

Originally posted by Gerbera:

hmm I'm torn on whether or not we should have a stagger mechanic now. I think it really depends on what else they add to the point where we need it.

I think the game would've had a lot more variety without it, though it would also be an interesting approach to try it as a lesser mechanic rather than the central piece it plays at the moment.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by 魔装機神 Psybuster:

Originally posted by Gerbera:

Tbh just because its in every action game doesn't make it bad so idk where Psybuster is coming from. In fact, there might be a good reason it is in every action game because it is a really good mechanic. The hipster logic needs to go and in fact it should be implemented here especially since they want more melee combat.

If anything the focus on Just Guards and the like is what feels "hipster" to me. You can have great, difficult action games that aren't just all about perfect timing constantly, as we've seen with series like Rockman, Akumajou Dracula, Contra, Ninja Ryuukenden, Monster Hunter, etc.

All of these games involve case of perfect timing or reaction time tho.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by 魔装機神 Psybuster:

Originally posted by Gerbera:

I mean this game does have many ways to survive already

Exactly. The biggest appeal of mecha games is choice, being able to build a machine for multiple purposes. It should be possible to make a lightweight machine that can zip around and fire from range, or to make a heavily armored wall that can absorb damage with minimal problem while punishing in return. I want to be able to build my Scopedogs and my FAZZ's alike.

Originally posted by Gerbera:

hmm I'm torn on whether or not we should have a stagger mechanic now. I think it really depends on what else they add to the point where we need it.

I think the game would've had a lot more variety without it, though it would also be an interesting approach to try it as a lesser mechanic rather than the central piece it plays at the moment.

Why would the game have more variety without the stagger mechanics?

The stagger mechanics do not kill build variety in this game, as every weapons stagger.

[Gerbera]

Originally posted by 魔装機神 Psybuster:

Originally posted by Gerbera:

Tbh just because its in every action game doesn't make it bad so idk where Psybuster is coming from. In fact, there might be a good reason it is in every action game because it is a really good mechanic. The hipster logic needs to go and in fact it should be implemented here especially since they want more melee combat.

If anything the focus on Just Guards and the like is what feels "hipster" to me. You can have great, difficult action games that aren't just all about perfect timing constantly, as we've seen with series like Rockman, Akumajou Dracula, Contra, Ninja Ryuukenden, Monster Hunter, etc.

Originally posted by Gerbera:

And I heavily disagree that the stagger should go too. It is such a nice mechanic and you dont even need to use it all the time. Energy weapons for example barely accumulate stagger but they rain hell on you by doing a ton of damage already so there is alternatives to the stagger system.

With the amount of firepower enemies put out, it is very clear that Stagger was an integral part of how they balanced the game. Which isn't to say it's impossible to do without, as there's always going to be people who can do things like take out the Ice Worm without the needle launcher, but it's still what the thought process was when balancing out how the weapons work. Even with the 150 output Generator, EN based weapons aren't really doing great damage to bosses either.

Originally posted by Gerbera:

In all seriousness tho, this game's combat needs even more to it if Fromsoft is gonna incorporate melee combat as a focus as well. As I said, a damn good start to something new, they just need to refine it.

Honestly, I would say they should go the opposite direction and put more focus on ranged combat, the combat's far too close quarters as is.

Honestly, I would say they should go the opposite direction and put more focus on ranged combat, the combat's far too close quarters as is. [/quote]

But at that point, what is the purpose of melee's existing? If I recall (dont take me word for word on this) somebody at fromsoft said if melee is to be viable along with guns, the combat overall needs to be a lot more close quarters-ish.

If you want to get the combat further away, melee mechs will have to move like Nexts to even get close to you.

Plus there is the final factor of interesting looking gameplay. While far ranged combat from over 700m makes more sense, it isn't fun to look at for too long unless the enemy is doing some really cool bs that makes it entertaining. This more intimate approach to combat is a lot more visually comprehensible to not only the average person but generally looks a lot more entertaining since there is more to it than just shooting. Yes it does feel like a rhythm game at times with stagger punish stagger punish but i think that stagger gauge adds another layer of butt clenching tension that this series definitely needs.

Like when Ayre staggered me in phase 2 and did here charge attack I knew I was gonna see the games of heaven.

[魔装機神 Psybuster]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

But moving appropriately is literally a part of the reaction time

For sure, but then it depends how tight we're talking; things like Just Guards, parries, Just Avoids and the like are generally twitch-timing type of movements, and while that's fine for some games, I don't think they should be a standard for every action game.

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

strategy and build should help, but it shouldn't be the defining actor IMO, else you would be better with a strategy game rather than an action game.

I am, admittedly, more of a strategy player than an action player, but I do think strategy has it's place in action games, and has for decades. Again, there's nothing wrong with making pure "instant reaction" type of action games as well, but to me at least it's much more satisfying to play something like Monster Hunter 2nd G where you have to watch and read your opponent carefully, making decisions about when to press and when to fall back, when to use items, etc.

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

I remember you asking for such a build tho

My intent there was less to look for a build specifically and more to see if people were even thinking in that direction at all, since the game seemed so heavily focused on building around Stagger. Thanks for remembering though!

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

anyway, just stick to any LW and Ransetsu rifles and missiles, you will kill everything in this game, without any need for stagger burst.

I've used those, and I simply don't have the ability to kill things fast enough with any of those, lulz. Probably a skill issue on my part.

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

All of these games involve case of perfect timing or reaction time tho.

Some of the newest titles, yeah, which is unfortunate, but the earliest entries in those series generally don't have Just Guard type mechanics.

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Why would the game have more variety without the stagger mechanics?

The stagger mechanics do not kill build variety in this game, as every weapons stagger.

Because the only builds that will be practical are the ones that can build Stagger effectively before it drains out, and then have enough weaponry to take advantage of the tiny window of defense down. A more hit-and-away build will not be able to build Stagger at all, for instance. On the reverse side, slower and tankier builds will in turn get stuck in Stagger constantly, and can't really rely on the extra HP/defense they have compared to lighter builds since thanks to Repair Kits effectively boosting every AC's health by 12000-18000 dependent on OS Tuning, their 9000 HP difference is relatively weakened. Now, this isn't to say it's impossible to win with any of these builds, as again, there's always going to be people who can do crazy challenges (someone did a God Gundam cosplay and melee'd the whole game even), but it is clear that the game's balance is definitely pushed hard in the direction of building Stagger and unleashing bursts of Stagger-boosted damage.

Originally posted by Gerbera:

But at that point, what is the purpose of melee's existing?

To avoid using up ammunition, because you don't really have that many bullets to be tossing out at anything and everything. Getting the drop on an Unaware MT with the melee is a great way to save your ammo, which in turn saves your wallet at mission's end.

Originally posted by Gerbera:

Plus there is the final factor of interesting looking gameplay. While far ranged combat from over 700m makes more sense, it isn't fun to look at for too long unless the enemy is doing some really cool bs that makes it entertaining.

So it's to appeal to the Vtuber crowd then, to get them to use it for content as free advertising?

[MadArtillery]

It is indeed why I'm not overly hard on it for it's faults. There's still a lot I want improved *cough* more complex bosses *cough* Overall it's pretty good, none of the AAA nonsense I won't touch these days.

[Jebe457]

Originally posted by Rith:

Main things I don't like in AC6 are:

... ... ...

Originally posted by Rith:

The repair kits ( just give more AP like previously, this is just a wasted button that could do better, cooler stuff for example side extensions or inside parts that we used to get)

The heal mechanic From has played with since Demon Souls allows them to calibrate TtD to health pool so opponents can hit hard, and not waste player time if the player approach isn't viable. This however leads to a need for a healing process.

The fashion during the PS3/XBox 360 era like with Call of Duty or Halo was an automatic healing process. That however puts the bias on needing the make the immediate fight maximum pressure, leading to the player responses that led these to be characterized as "Cover Shooters."

Healing kits allows for player challenge to be handled by mission, as the player has a discrete amount of total healing.

In short, what you're proposing is _BAD_ game design.

Originally posted by Rith:

The stagger bar (just delete this for good, it completely kills the concept of heavy builds that were already struggling without it as they need to mitigate damage and can't do that if they get unconditionally stunned due to no avoidance and take increased damage)

If your hyperbolic complaints were true this video wouldn't exist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N5Hj3TbINM

Also while not necessarily explicit that kind of mechanic is a staple of Armored Core, and Mechwarrior for that matter. In Mechwarrior 3 you could literally overcome the opposing Mechs "stagger meter" and cause them to fall over with something like a LRM fuselage.

While there are a few different ways to handle it Stagger Mechanisms give the ballistic/explosive weapons in Mecha games weight and helps make them distinct from other options.

Originally posted by Rith:

ricochet/weapon range being way too low (It is a 3rd person shooter why are we forced into melee range to fight with things like rifles, this just overpowers close range weapons like shotguns, especially when paired with stagger bar mechanic)

Another hyperbolic response... There are multiple solid weapon options that either don't even use the Effective Range mechanic, and have longer range... In-engine terms in AB your average Core isn't going to be going faster than around 150 meters/second.

So let's say for the sake of argument that you have the baseline Plasma Rifle with a 400 meter range, period. Let's pretend we have a perfectly flat, featureless map, and thus Range is the only possible issue. The inbound Core is going to take 2 full seconds to cross the distance of where the defending core can start firing to get within the Zimmerman's 102 meter range, if the defending core doesn't more. In turn do remember that said Afterburner sprint will rapidly deplete their capacitor and force them to land opening them up for a Punish.

At 0.7 shots per second this means that our defending Core can fire roughly 3 salvos before the attacking Core can salvo their Zimmermans at the Effective range of 102 meters. Those Plasma rifles can easily do over 1k damage per shot with 1.5k achievable with the VE-20B reactor. If we assume dual wielding said plasma rifles and no shoulder weapons that's already 9k AP with the VE-20B, aka a full health bar for the attacker. Add in some shoulder options the damage output is going to exceed their reasonable ability to absorb it, before we account for the ability of the defender to push back on the stick.

Whatever your problem is with this, isn't a lack of viable long range weapons.

Originally posted by Rith:

Energy supply delay (I don't understand why this is even a thing if you can just infinite flight anyway, despite the mechanic)

That Mechanic has always been a part of Armored Core, and Mechwarrior for that matter... There's a variety of reasons to do that associated with pacing of player options as part of encounter design concepts.

As discussed in the previous section a big one is making it so that people maximizing mobility options have a Risk/Reward dynamic they're playing with for using stuff like the afterburner.

[D. Flame]

Originally posted by overmage:

Originally posted by D. Flame:

I played exactly one MMO for any significant period of time. I never even got to the end game before I stopped.

Meanwhile, I put over a thousand hours into Monster Hunter World and its expansion.

MHW isn't a live service game, though.

It got continuously updated for a year, for free, with rotating quests, and new monsters being regularly added. The the Expansion released and got continuous updates as well.

Sounds pretty live servicey to me.

[魔装機神 Psybuster]

Originally posted by Jebe457:

TtD

What is "TtD"?

Originally posted by Jebe457:

Those Plasma rifles can easily do over 1k damage per shot with 1.5k achievable with the VE-20B reactor. If we assume dual wielding said plasma rifles and no shoulder weapons that's already 9k AP, aka a full health bar for the attacker.

Wouldn't Energy Defense come into play on a per hit basis too though?

[Aldain]

Originally posted by 魔装機神 Psybuster:

What is "TtD"?

Time to Death I'd imagine.

It's more commonly seen as/similar in concept to TtK, or Time to Kill, specifically it concerns the time it takes for a death state to be triggered by incoming damage.

It's most commonly a discussion point in FPS games, but is also still a factor in terms of overall balancing in general, for example, Souls games tend to have a very low TtD, balanced by the Estus flask and infinite lives, whereas in the older AC games, outside of a few exceptions TtD was much higher on average since healing wasn't a factor (unless you just stood still entirely of course).

As a final example, I'd say TtK is almost too low in AC6's PvP, because of how a single stagger can lead to a burst of massive damage to a near instant death.

[Belmont]

Originally posted by 魔装機神 Psybuster:

Oh please no, that kind of perfect timing mechanic is just infesting every action game these days it feels.

I like parrying :( Well, ok I like parrying that feels like high risk high reward that relies on skill/timing. Tight frames and a decent punish are what I want but shouldn't be a core mechanic - it should be build specific. This way the game won't be rife with a parry meta, but would make it threatening enough to tell your opponent to respect your threat range. Making it so parries aren't effective against certain ranged projectiles would help balance it.

[SpartanHexus]

Originally posted by Belmont:

Originally posted by 魔装機神 Psybuster:

Oh please no, that kind of perfect timing mechanic is just infesting every action game these days it feels.

I like parrying :( Well, ok I like parrying that feels like high risk high reward that relies on skill/timing. Tight frames and a decent punish are what I want but shouldn't be a core mechanic - it should be build specific. This way the game won't be rife with a parry meta, but would make it threatening enough to tell your opponent to respect your threat range. Making it so parries aren't effective against certain ranged projectiles would help balance it.

Well, we do have Initial Guard timing on pulse shields that eats a lot of damage and impact, though the only thing it does is just that, no bounce back or stagger if someone blades your parry, its very consistent and reliable, most of the times at least...

[Kain]

Originally posted by 魔装機神 Psybuster:

Oh please no, that kind of perfect timing mechanic is just infesting every action game these days it feels.

And yet no one did it better than Sekiro.

[poppindancers]

Originally posted by D. Flame:

I 100%ed the game in 80 hours. Could have done it in less if I wasn't grinding and testing gear and strategies. If the game was live service, I would likely still be playing it. Instead, it's pretty much shelved.

It's lived as much as it needs to be.

All live service concept and game can burn.

[opus132]

I appreciate the fact there's a company out there that puts out high quality singleplayer games that don't threat the player as a moron or haven't been made by a committee of marketing goons.

Even at their lowest ebb, FromSoft are above and beyond modern so called "AAA" companies.