The AI and input reading.

[Sir Harlz]

I noticed around chapter 3 and onwards a lot more enemies will blatantly read your inputs and makes some weapons useless. It's not that noticeable if you are using ranged weapons because it's expected that you need to time shoulder mounted weapons and boozaka's. Where it becomes really annoying is if you are using certain melee weapons like the chainsaw's, the laser dagger, and a few others. The chainsaw especially is utterly useless against some enemies who can just casually back out of the attack even if you're in this face when you begin the attack. If you're using a laser dagger it can be REALLY noticeable because it recharges very fast and if you're doing the trick to melee lunge but not actually attack, then it can make the movement go crazy as the AI just keeps dodging (seriously try it against V.I in the arena the camera was spinning all over the place with hard lock).

[REhorror]

Nope, I like the AI being able to dodge thing.
Wish it can be added into some of the lower level MT (because some PCA MT can actually provide a fight).

[Sir Harlz]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Nope, I like the AI being able to dodge thing.
Wish it can be added into some of the lower level MT (because some PCA MT can actually provide a fight).

Dodging =/= Reading your control inputs. If the AI cannot dodge without cheating then that's some bad design and is probably the reason why the game is so easy with tread builds at the moment. My complaint is that it's hurting the game because it's not making it harder, it's making it disjointed. Two players can go through the exact same missions, if one is doing a mobile AC with a melee weapon he's going to have a harder time then someone doing a medium/long range build on nearly every mission.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Sir Harlz:

Originally posted by REhorror:

Nope, I like the AI being able to dodge thing.
Wish it can be added into some of the lower level MT (because some PCA MT can actually provide a fight).

Dodging =/= Reading your control inputs. If the AI cannot dodge without cheating then that's some bad design and is probably the reason why the game is so easy with tread builds at the moment.

I'm not sure if input reading is cheating but it helps with the enemy's dodging, it should be implemented.

And I never use tread build myself, the game's PvE is balanced where everything works.

[Aldain]

I don't think it's as bad as it is in Elden Ring, at least they seem to react after the attack is already fired rather than the literal second you press the button to fire (yes, I think the input reading is far too harsh in Elden Ring and was better done in Bloodborne more or less).

But it is a bit sad when you realize that 90% of the time they dodge a max of twice in quick succession usually before entering a "cooldown" period even if they would still have energy to continue doing so and which weapons/stagger thresholds trigger the dodges that it's nowhere near a problem in most fights.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Nope, I like the AI being able to dodge thing.
Wish it can be added into some of the lower level MT (because some PCA MT can actually provide a fight).

There is a difference between "knows how to dodge" and "Can dodge cancel out of a red flash attack three times in a row within a span of 2 seconds"

If you have a high pressure build you can get the AI acting basically like they are a hacker instead of a real enemy. Can't bait them into a dodge then hit them with a follow up with a charged/heavy weapon if they just chain dodge cancels.

If you are an actual honest gamer instead of "Inconvenience = challenge, honest!" brained. Then you can realize instead of smart tactics the """best""" way to deal with that is to play worse on purpose.

you dodge ASAP, they cancel their red flash shot then shoot it again when your quickboost is on cooldown. You try to counter hit them ASAP, they dodge cancel so you can't stagger them.

You stand there drooling and basically let them shoot you, that puts them on cooldown so you can nail them in the face with an instant shotgun round or now less trash fast projectile heavy shot while they are in the half second of post shot hang time.

It is nowhere near as bad as literal souls games, where you get a front row seat to "so the boss I was tanking for my host 180 degree leapt halfway across the arena mid combo to flatten the host the second they touched the estus button. People are trying to pass this off as 'didn't learn pattern recognition'"

But when you are an honest game, you can see the cracks showing. And those cracks amusingly enough are ones you won't get to see if you use double shotguns because the reload time on shotguns the AI can pretend they are doing legit dodge timing instead of cancel spam

[REhorror]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

Originally posted by REhorror:

Nope, I like the AI being able to dodge thing.
Wish it can be added into some of the lower level MT (because some PCA MT can actually provide a fight).

There is a difference between "knows how to dodge" and "Can dodge cancel out of a red flash attack three times in a row within a span of 2 seconds"

If you have a high pressure build you can get the AI acting basically like they are a hacker instead of a real enemy. Can't bait them into a dodge then hit them with a follow up with a charged/heavy weapon if they just chain dodge cancels.

If you are an actual honest gamer instead of "Inconvenience = challenge, honest!" brained. Then you can realize instead of smart tactics the """best""" way to deal with that is to play worse on purpose.

you dodge ASAP, they cancel their red flash shot then shoot it again when your quickboost is on cooldown. You try to counter hit them ASAP, they dodge cancel so you can't stagger them.

You stand there drooling and basically let them shoot you, that puts them on cooldown so you can nail them in the face with an instant shotgun round or now less trash fast projectile heavy shot while they are in the half second of post shot hang time.

Eh, I have never encountered any enemy that literally can dodge every shot every times so I can't share the experience.

I like that the enemy can dodge thing, just wish the lower level MTs have that ability.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by REhorror:

Originally posted by ImHelping:

There is a difference between "knows how to dodge" and "Can dodge cancel out of a red flash attack three times in a row within a span of 2 seconds"

If you have a high pressure build you can get the AI acting basically like they are a hacker instead of a real enemy. Can't bait them into a dodge then hit them with a follow up with a charged/heavy weapon if they just chain dodge cancels.

If you are an actual honest gamer instead of "Inconvenience = challenge, honest!" brained. Then you can realize instead of smart tactics the """best""" way to deal with that is to play worse on purpose.

you dodge ASAP, they cancel their red flash shot then shoot it again when your quickboost is on cooldown. You try to counter hit them ASAP, they dodge cancel so you can't stagger them.

You stand there drooling and basically let them shoot you, that puts them on cooldown so you can nail them in the face with an instant shotgun round or now less trash fast projectile heavy shot while they are in the half second of post shot hang time.

Eh, I have never encountered any enemy that literally can dodge every shot every times so I can't share the experience.

I like that the enemy can dodge thing, just wish the lower level MTs have that ability.

You see it more often with high pressure "Don't have to stop shooting for a long while when they are 1 feather tap away from stagger" builds that are also more certain to hit than say, overhyped and constantly overheating twin gats.

That last bit is why I keep throwing burst fire weapons in the garbage, and also why the laser pistols are overvalued by the playerbase even though they are solid guns.

The AI overvalues burst weapon threat, so some of those trash coyote druggie MT will try to side hope away from the burst assault rifle constantly.

The AI undervalues laser pistols. So will basically let you shoot them with them for longer until their stagger meter gets high enough they flip on the newtype powers switch.

twin basic laser rifles was often an odd sweet spot in their brain of "Will let me hit them like an idiot for most of their stagger meter, they suddenly start chain canceling like they are trying to do a final boss impression if they know it will stagger them to be shot during a red flash warning."

The fact it seems so heavily tied to "How close are they to stagger?" sure does not help skewed perceptions of "Nuh uh clearly skill issues if you think they are overtuned even a little bit!" told to people who are S rank breaking bosses over their knees.

See also: effective range reading. AKA "Why this boss will keep perfectly floating backwards to revolver deflect range after the first two hits, but eats ♥♥♥♥ like a moron to the weaker nailgun pistols. They cheat wrong and dodge to a range those still don't deflect against" (wonder if they buffed their brains on that yet?)

bring two rifles they fly 400m into the sky a lot more. Bring a pair of revolvers and they tease you by pretending you just barely didn't catch them. ♥♥♥♥♥♥ weak nail pistols with only 5 ammo each and WHAM.

[Sir Harlz]

Originally posted by REhorror:

And I never use tread build myself, the game's PvE is balanced where everything works.

Bro you can beat the game with fist only if that's your thing. I am saying the game shouldn't be stupid easy for one play style and then have a difficulty spike for another. I get that every game is going to have a meta but the difference here can be massive.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Sir Harlz:

Originally posted by REhorror:

And I never use tread build myself, the game's PvE is balanced where everything works.

Bro you can beat the game with fist only if that's your thing. I am saying the game shouldn't be stupid easy for one play style and then have a difficulty spike for another. I get that every game is going to have a meta but the difference here is MASSIVE.

Is it really? I should try a tread build sometimes.

I don't really like tread because I like jumping/vertical movement.

[SCamp]

Just fire your shots one arm/shoulder at a time to bait out the dodges or put the AI into a situation where dodging is ineffective.

PvE is only hostile to alpha-striking brainlets who blow their entire load on a dodge, wait for their cooldowns to come off only to alpha-strike into another dodge. And that is perfectly fine.

[Velmoria]

The "input reading" AI makes them easier to read and even manipulate/exploit their AI script.
They even dodge regular rifle shots. Count their dodges then blast them with explosive.

[Call Sign: Raven]

As above, input reading makes the game MORE predictable, not less.

Additionally, From's games have been historically reading animations, not inputs. There's been tons of videos from the likes of Zullie the Witch and Illusory Wall dispelling that misnomer. These games are looking for specific animations. Godskin is looking for your Estus drink animation, for example. Yeah, I said Estus.

That being said, I don't want an AI that just stupidly stands in the way of my attacks, I think the way the game is it's totally fine.

[Quillithe]

It doesn't feel that weird that they dodge your charged shots.

After all, you dodge THEIR charged shots thanks to a whole warning system that goes off before the projectile is fired.

So it would be silly if they didn't try to do the same.

[This PC]

"I'm struggling to hit AI therefore it must cheat"

This discussion is so tired. Crops up like.. every week on every Fromsoft game.
Every AI in every game input reads... AI is designed to react to your input to provide challenge. I've learned to counter it, play around it, and take advantage of it. You can too.

Of course you'd think the AI cheats when you're used to games that hold your hand and revolve around you and then suddenly you boot up a game that doesn't hold your hand and doesn't really care about you. You might not like the latter, but some of us like to not be treated like incapable man children. If that doesn't suit you, there's a lot more modern games out there for you than there is for me.

Originally posted by ImHelping:

If you have a high pressure build you can get the AI acting basically like they are a hacker instead of a real enemy. Can't bait them into a dodge then hit them with a follow up with a charged/heavy weapon if they just chain dodge cancels.

Then why can I bait two dodges and then hit them with the 8 following shots ?
You can see that 2 dodges - getting slammed happening in this footage at 19 seconds:
https://youtu.be/Ol00UWrwrBM
Don't peg your incompetence/lack of knowledge of the mechanics on faulty game design - you can absolutely deal with them. Can't land charged shots ? Then don't use them/builds that rely on them.

I can see this pattern in most of my footage - Last boss of Fires, last boss of true ending, even fights against AC's, even the tester AC.

Originally posted by ImHelping:

If you are an actual honest gamer instead of "Inconvenience = challenge, honest!" brained. Then you can realize instead of smart tactics the """best""" way to deal with that is to play worse on purpose.

If you were an honest gamer, you'd realize you're inconvenienced by your incompetence, and you'd fix it. All I seen you do is complain about it for the past month. ;p

[Sir Harlz]

Originally posted by This PC:

"I'm struggling to hit AI therefore it must cheat" This discussion is so tired. Crops up like.. every week on every Fromsoft game.
found ways to land shots.

Ignoring how passive aggressive and ironic this response is, are you seriously saying you don't notice the AI obviously cheats? lol. Pretty much every single upper rank AC ignores game mechanics and rules and it's not even hidden. They'll use certain weapons way too, stay in the air too long, their strain will magically stop at 99% and stay there even if you follow up, when you do break their strain the stun for them will be much shorter and sometimes they won't be stunned at all.

Arguing whether these cheats are fair and used to provide tough fights or are just bad ways of padding the difficulty is a completely discussion. Personally though I am getting sick of the "Fromsoft community" and it's inability to 1. read and 2. take any criticism. People always focus on "WELL THIS GUY/I CAN DO IT!" but that does not mean it's fun or good game design. People have beaten AC6 fist only, does not mean the game would be fine if you just limited us to fist only.

I said I don't like the way the AI handles dodging because it feels artificial and only punishes certain weapons. Instead of accepting someone had a complaint and wanted feedback from the community you got defensive, rude, and made several assumptions, classic fromsoft community moment.