Story Line Questions - SPOILERS

[Molatov]

So I've done the game through NG++ and gotten all three endings and all the logs. I get the gist of things but I'm still curious why the story so ambiguous and vague? Is this on purpose or was something lost in translation?

Biggest questions I have are:

What is Coral? It seems Coral seems to be, as someone else put it "sentient self-replicating gasoline" that can also control machines and be used in brain surgery. So while that's a weird set of properties for a material, it makes sense why the corps and RLF want it. It's a source of energy and funds. On that same note though the in-game lore explicitly says that if Coral is allowed to gather it will mutate and cause 'the collapse' and that this will result in the end of humanity. Ayre seems to either not care or not be aware of this, but she's not a human so her wanting the survival of her people make sense, even if she is oblivious or unconcerned with the danger posed to Humanity. But Allmind is either a human built AI or a Coral hijacked AI. The later would make sense for why it would want to release the Coral, because like Ayre it's either oblivious or unconcerned with the consequences for humanity but if it's just a Human built AI that isn't under the Coral's influence it's strange that Allmind is seemingly ignoring the risks to all of humanity that 'Release' would impose.

The story makes repeated mentions of the concepts of 'freedom' and 'potential' of humanity and coral together but what does that mean? Coral to humans is just fuel; something Ayre seemed horrified by. Then there are repeated statements about 621's freedom but they quite literally have a chip in their brain that let's Walter and later on Allmind turn them off an on at will. So what 'freedom' are they referencing? 621 is a pawn of someone or another in all storylines, and only in Fires of Raven is 621 truly free of ALL influences including Ayre.

How is any ending but Fires of Raven a 'good' ending?
Liberator of Rubicon has you murder Carla which just feels bad and on top of that you drop a small city on to the planet from orbit. That would cause an extinction level impact on Rubicon itself. Which really seems like the opposite of saving anyone.

Then Alea lacta Est on top of not making a lot of sense, doesn't feel good to play and definitely seems like the 'worst' ending possible. You've killed all your enemies AND allies. You're willingly going along with Allmind's seemingly evil plan but it still tries to kill you? Like I guess they needed a boss fight but it just doesn't make sense. Then once you beat Allmind/Igauzu you're presented a cut scene as if you've saved everyone but you've ruined the RLF (taken all the coral) and spread seemingly sentient AC's across the entire sector (galaxy?) and shattered the corporations and the PCA. Ayre's last words as the screen fades to black is starting up the Combat systems in an AC. Not a good sign for people in general.

Just to echo my original thought, is the story just vague and cryptic on purpose or because something was lost in translation?

They left a lot of loose ends with references both to Elcano being a joint venture between the RLF & BAWS; and what was the Branch Hacktivist group doing on Rubicon? Presumably there to thwart Allmind? so I'm hoping there is an expansion or DLC. (plus I want more parts. only 3 tank legs and 3 reverse legs feels bad. :( )

[REBirthTheEdge]

Like Coral is explained pretty deeply in some of the Coral ruins mission and the Depth, make sure you search and find all the logs.

But just to be simple, Coral is a form of sentient energy being that can mutate and transform things when come in contact with them.

That's the down low of it.

[Belmont]

There's a lot to address. RAD is there because Carla is directly involved with RI.

In true ending, you didn't destroy whole organizations, Arquebus, Balam, and PCA exist off world as well. Rubicon may be the world but not the universe. This implies that you may have scattered coral, but it's not everywhere. It's still finite in it's latest state.

Not sure about the on/off switch as is it's not defined itself either. It certainly exists via the intro cutscene, but it's not necessarily mind control. Perhaps Walter values agency still considering his character. There is also 617's story in the story trailer. Sulla also exists and wasn't "switched off" by Walter either. 621 enters the game under debt (idk it's a bit up to interpretation) so at some point he needs to earn some freedom back.

Coral is a play on Choral or a host of individual voices. The concept is pretty common in sci-fi where some energy like entity has sentience and autonomy. Coral is a collection of consciousnesses that can be harnessed for energy--to put it simply. The reason why it's sought after isn't just the energy, but also what the RI, specifically Rubicon RI, developed. The PCA is like the universe police.

If you're new to FromSoftware games, you usually have to seek out the extra content provided for context to everything as your perspective is being an outsider watching things unfold in front of you. The data logs, sketches, and arena descriptions provide a lot on top of the dialogue.

Extra note, consider RAD are Coral abusers, Honest Brute can hear a voice too. Where RLF religiously assimilates, RAD abuses it as a substance. Hence why Thumb Dolmayan also hears something.

[CaptWolf]

Yeah, I feel like Branch and the other Ravens where a plot point that gets kind of...dropped, I was hoping NG++ would've expanded on what their role was on Rubicon, maybe it was cut.

Regarding the endings, Chaotic freedom versus stagnating control were always a reoccurring theme in AC games, in the first two endings humanity stays as it was before the events of AC6, constantly in a state of fighting each other over husks of planets, the third ending is the only one with hope of a future for both humanity and coral (though IF it is a better alternative is left unanswered, like the previous games).

[Koros Antavo]

First, Coral is an alien (single-cellular?) lifeform. However, it acts cohesively as a swarm over large for microscopic organisms distances, and in certain cases, like the Convergence, as large as the entire planet. They can transfer information and energy very efficiently, hence why they are used as fuel and why they are capable of controlling human tech.

A microscopic organism by the nature of its being must be able to evolve quickly. This one also communicates well with its neighbours, which can lead to unpredictably complicated results. These are the "mutations" the Rubicon Institute scientists refer to.

Coral can be used to enhance human bodies and minds to be capable of piloting an AC. In case you didn't notice, ACs are 10 meter gigantic and colossally heavy metal monstrosities, but they move even more nimbly than a human being ever could at their no more than 2 meter height. The inertial forces would turn a normal human into paste with a single Quick Boost, but apparently Coral augmentaions can help mitigate the effects. Normal humans pilot MTs, which are usually significantly smaller and slower.

It appears that the Fires of Ibis, the great calamity of 5 decades past that engulfed the whole solar system, induced the Coral in some augmented humans to further mutate, preserving their consciousness and scattering it across the remaining Coral swar. That is what Ayre is, and what Seria (Dolmayan's Coral partner) is.

What is the Collapse and how can it lead to the end of humanity? Some people stupidly think the Collapse is a massive explosion, and we must prevent it at all costs. This is, of course, idiotic, as the RI scientists BURNED THE ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM to prevent Coral Collapse, and you BURN THE WHOLE PLANET in the Fires of Raven ending.

So if not an explosion, what is Collapse? An alien organism capable of mutating far enough to host a whole human consciousness in (presumed) decades since first contact with humans is capable of evolving far past human understanding. That is what the Collapse is - an emergence of a new sentient species, who by their power and intellectual ability might as well be gods in comparison to humanity.

Ayre, being a human scattered across the Coral hivemind, makes a case that humanity has no need to fear this outcome, but should rather coexist with the Coral and benefit both parties. It appears that before humans, Coral was basically on a level of highly active algea, but our meddling feeds their growth potential. Conversely, humainty has much to gain from new levels of interpersonal and inter-technological connectivity that Coral can facilitate, as well as new forms of fuel, of course.

In Fires of Raven, you extinguish this potential entirely, preventing the corpos from fighting over this coveted resource and eliminating the threat of alien domniance (presumably, once and for all this time). It will just be business as usual from now on, with the corpos fighting over something else, and the universe unchanged. Except you killed every single person on Rubicon, people unrelated to you, your enemies, your allies, and your friends.

In Liberation of Rubicon, you drive away the corpos and the space police from the planet, and (presumably, once and for all this time) completely destroy Overseer, that being Carla and Wlater, leaving Rubicon in the hands of the Rubiconians. As key figures in the events leading up to the liberation and the liberation itself, Raven and Ayre now effectively hold the place Dolmayan and Seria used to hold. Dolmayan, however, wanted to just use coral as fuel, just like the corpos did, and Seria agreed with him, which you can glean from his logs. Raven with Ayre, however, are poised to start the spread of Coral-human symbiosis, with the pair being the poster children for it.

In Alea Iacta Est, the human-built mercenary-management AI "ALLMIND", in pursuing its goal of maximising utility and capability of mercenaries under its oversight, is spiraling down the path of human-alien-tech transhumanism, to create a perfect organism. it, of course, succeeds, with Raven and Ayre becoming said organism and getting scattered across the galaxy. This fulfills Ayre's goal of exploring human-Coral potential to its fullest in the shortest amount of time. Presumably, from here on out, you as the transhuman hivemind will start recruiting more humans to join your cause, and enter wars with various corpos trying to mine the Coral that has been scattered in the release.

[Tsar Platinum]

I agree in thinking the "true ending" is actually the worst in terms of both gameplay and story. Also prepare for a giant black box.

Story wise, you've literally murdered all your friends to go along with Allmind's plan of releasing the Coral across the galaxy.

Then Allmind decides to kill you? Like what? Why? Then we find out Iguazu merged with Allmind. Huh? Like this little petty rivalry he has is completely one sided, and it all started because...you did good on a mission he accompanied you on? There's no reason for this rivalry to really exist.

Gameplay wise the Allmind boss just sucks. Phase 1 is you vs Allmind + like 5 other ACs that are black and blend in with both the background and the shadows cast by the gigantic pillars. Phase 2 is you and Ayre against Allmind and two Sea-Spiders. Phase 3 is you against a melee attack spamming Allmind that I don't even know how to dodge. I just Zimmerman stunlocked it to death because getting caught in one melee and then dying was not super fun.

Also, I hate how in the penultimate mission you don't even get to fight Carla and Walter. I was hoping for a 2v1 against them but Allmind just says "I'll handle it lol." That mission just ends and it's really boring.

Compare this to where you fight Walter and a completed Balteus for the Liberator of Rubicon ending. There is also the Ayre fight in the Fires of Raven ending which is just a more fair Allmind fight and Rusty in an upgraded AC. Both endings have way more emotional impact story wise and in their final boss fights.

I prefer Liberator of Rubicon. That final Walter fight was way more emotionally charged than the others and fighting V.II Snail in Balteus was cool.

[gnome_chomski]

It's something of a tradition in recent FROM games that the "standard" ending is also the ending that has the least-worst outcome as far as the narrative goes, with things only getting worse and worse in the "secret" or "true" endings.

Dark Souls -- In the standard ending of DS1 you link the first flame, and the world limps on for another cycle. In the hidden ending, you extinguish the flame, the world is swallowed by Dark, and everyone (presumably?) dies. Dark Souls 3 does its own spin on this as well.

Bloodborne is maybe the best example -- the bad ending sees you surviving and walking off into the sunrise the morning after the hunt, the standard ending sees you cursed to take Gehrman's place for eternity in the Hunter's Dream, and in the "true" ending your quest for eldritch lore transforms you into a baby-Cthulhu.

Sekiro is the only one that stands out for how the bad ending is unambiguously bad, and the secret / true ending bringing about the best resolution for the characters.

[Tsar Platinum]

Originally posted by gnome_chomski:

It's something of a tradition in recent FROM games that the "standard" ending is also the ending that has the least-worst outcome as far as the narrative goes, with things only getting worse and worse in the "secret" or "true" endings.

Dark Souls -- In the standard ending of DS1 you link the first flame, and the world limps on for another cycle. In the hidden ending, you extinguish the flame, the world is swallowed by Dark, and everyone (presumably?) dies. Dark Souls 3 does its own spin on this as well.

Bloodborne is maybe the best example -- the bad ending sees you surviving and walking off into the sunrise the morning after the hunt, the standard ending sees you cursed to take Gehrman's place for eternity in the Hunter's Dream, and in the "true" ending your quest for eldritch lore transforms you into a baby-Cthulhu.

Sekiro is the only one that stands out for how the bad ending is unambiguously bad, and the secret / true ending bringing about the best resolution for the characters.

I've always interpreted the Age of Dark to be the Age of Man. The gods rule because the First Flame grants them their power. When the flame is snuffed out, man is finally given the chance to rule for themselves and the world falls into an Age of Darkness which is the primordial form of man or something.

DS3 implies that Ages of Dark do occur but are short lived because the Flame is eventually linked.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Originally posted by gnome_chomski:

Dark Souls -- In the standard ending of DS1 you link the first flame, and the world limps on for another cycle. In the hidden ending, you extinguish the flame, the world is swallowed by Dark, and everyone (presumably?) dies. Dark Souls 3 does its own spin on this as well.

In Dark Souls 1, the idea was that your “human” form is actually a lie perpetuated by Gwyn to keep the gods in control. Hollowing is really just the true nature of humanity (the dark soul) revealing itself while the power of Gwyn’s soul (the light soul) fades with the First Flame. That is to say hollowing is only perceived as a curse because of a false perception. The Age of Dark is the natural progression of the world which the gods have been preventing to stay in power. It’s thus seen as the good ending because you are seizing control for yourself and leading the world into its destined future.

This was changed with the sequels, where it was made that the First Flame would respark after an age of dark. And so both choices became seemingly endless cycles. Aldea in 2 suggests the possibility of a third option to end both cycles, but this was never fully explored.

[Koros Antavo]

Originally posted by (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Aldea in 2 suggests the possibility of a third option to end both cycles, but this was never fully explored.

...except for ds3's Lord of the Hollows ending. But I agree it wasn't actually explored there, just presented.

[The Snacrifice]

None of the endings are 'good', because that's the point. You cannot sit on the sidelines, 621 has to make a choice, which will put him in direct opposition to the people around him, even ones he might care about.

Coral is an alien, organic substance found on Rubicon. It works as a super-material, capable of storing massive amounts of energy(why it explodes so good into the Fires of Ibis in the first place), can be used to transmit data, and can even be used to augment humans(like 621 and others).

The Rubicon research Institute started experimenting with Coral, and at some point Nagai(who at this time had a young Walter + Carla either nearby or directly working with them) realized that the Coral was/is becoming sentient, most likely because it was being fed through human brains(augmented pilots) and machinery (AIs, weapons, ACs,, etc.). Coral loves to clump together, and Nagai thought that space would allow it to clump together even more, since the Coral wouldn't have to worry about gravity or wind or anything pulling it apart.

Once they realized the Coral was becoming intelligent, and that it did weird stuff to humans, they tried to burn it before it could alter humanity irrevocably. This is the Fires of Ibis.

Ayre can't control 621. You know this because you can choose different paths and do things Ayre doesn't want. She's a partner, not a controller. Ayre believes humans and coral can co-exist, and is horrified when she realizes that humans have been putting coral into weapons and using them to kill each other. Later she realizes that humans evolve and grow, and begins to want Coral to do that with humans(specifically 621). she also starts to realize why humans started using Coral(the statement she makes about the grinder wheels being powered autonomously, effortlessly, for over five decades. 'no wonder humans seek Coral')

The final NG++ ending has ALLMIND using 621/Ayre in order to create Coral Convergence. The vast majority of Coral is only semi-sentient, but Ayre and ALLMIND both understand it can grow if it gets to a certain density. ALLMIND wants to absorb the brain scans of all the humans it can get, then use the convergence to absorb all the coral and create a perfect AI-controlled super-being. Ayre and 621 stop it, and take it over instead.

Since Ayre wants true co-existence(and presumably so does 621), when the convergence happens(black hole scene), Coral becomes unbound by time/space and combines with everything, including humans. That means humans are no longer truly 'human' but a hybrid, connected infinitely. Hence the 'Now we're everywhere' comment at the very end.

It feels bad to kill Carla because you've been fighitng alongside her. But don't forget both her and Walter have carelessly thrown away lives as easily as Snail or Balam have. Carla sacrifices her own men to try to kill you. Both have mountains of bodies in their wake to satisfy their goals, and so does 621(albeit at the orders of others). Walter even warns you of this in the beginning - don't trust the people on Rubicon.

Elcano and BRANCH and a lot of the unseen but available for parts companies like BAWS and Furlong are working in the background, some for purely monetary/political reasons(screw over Areqbues/Balam - Furlong in particular has a huge chip on their shoulder vs. Balam, probably for losing a fleet and Michigan to them at some point), and some most likely to stop ALLMIND(considering O'Keefe knows Rusty, is a member of BRANCH, and was a candidate knowing what ALLMIND really wants). It's not a surprise that BAWS and Elcano are deliberately working with the rubicon liberation front and using Rusty as a plant in Arquebus, they're competitors to them and the RLF are a customer too.

[Young Erusean Officer]

As someone with severe chronic pain that likely won't reach his 70s. The idea that I can live forever without a body is pretty tempting.

[gnome_chomski]

Originally posted by Magos Dominus:

I've always interpreted the Age of Dark to be the Age of Man. The gods rule because the First Flame grants them their power. When the flame is snuffed out, man is finally given the chance to rule for themselves and the world falls into an Age of Darkness which is the primordial form of man or something.

DS3 implies that Ages of Dark do occur but are short lived because the Flame is eventually linked.

The Age of Dark could be the Age of Man... IF Darkstalker Kaathe was telling the whole truth, which is a big if. Even if Dark is the natural state out of which humanity arose and the gods were indeed unnaturally prolonging their reign, it's just as possible that Kaathe was manipulating you for his own purposes and nothing good for humanity will come of the Dark.

DS2 also seems to suggest that the first flame can never truly be extinguished, and it's always going to pre-empt the rise of an Age of Dark because of how the undead are eternally drawn to link the flame over and over again. Even in DS3, the "true Dark" ending involves you usurping the first flame to seize its power for yourself, rather than snuffing it out.

The only vision we get of a true Age of Dark is the Untended Graves in DS3, and humanity is nowhere in sight aside from that single mysterious shrine maiden. We only get this small glimpse but it sure seems to suggest "the final death of the world" rather than nature being restored to its proper course and humanity ascendent.

It's interesting to think about and theorycraft for sure, that's part of what makes these games so special

[Tsar Platinum]

Originally posted by gnome_chomski:

Originally posted by Magos Dominus:

I've always interpreted the Age of Dark to be the Age of Man. The gods rule because the First Flame grants them their power. When the flame is snuffed out, man is finally given the chance to rule for themselves and the world falls into an Age of Darkness which is the primordial form of man or something.

DS3 implies that Ages of Dark do occur but are short lived because the Flame is eventually linked.

The Age of Dark could be the Age of Man... IF Darkstalker Kaathe was telling the whole truth, which is a big if. Even if Dark is the natural state out of which humanity arose and the gods were indeed unnaturally prolonging their reign, it's just as possible that Kaathe was manipulating you for his own purposes and nothing good for humanity will come of the Dark.

DS2 also seems to suggest that the first flame can never truly be extinguished, and it's always going to pre-empt the rise of an Age of Dark because of how the undead are eternally drawn to link the flame over and over again. Even in DS3, the "true Dark" ending involves you usurping the first flame to seize its power for yourself, rather than snuffing it out.

The only vision we get of a true Age of Dark is the Untended Graves in DS3, and humanity is nowhere in sight aside from that single mysterious shrine maiden. We only get this small glimpse but it sure seems to suggest "the final death of the world" rather than nature being restored to its proper course and humanity ascendent.

It's interesting to think about and theorycraft for sure, that's part of what makes these games so special :bonfire2:

Yeah the Ages of Fire and Dark are cycles. Gwyn choosing to link the flame messed with the natural state of the world and thus the world begins to break down as shown in Dark Souls 3. The Flame has burned too long and dark must be allowed to set in so that the world may return to it's natural state.

Kaathe is dead by DS3. In the original translation for Yuria's death dialogue, she says she failed to fulfill his dying wish. If Kaathe was really looking to bring about the Age of Dark for his own purposes, I feel like he wouldn't tell Yuria to find a Lord of Hollows.

[Albireo]

You folks realise Fires of Raven kills everyone too right? It's easily the most genocidal outcome as Rubicon is left a lifeless rock and the damage stretches out elsewhere, no one in the plot survives.

ALLMIND notably is not too explained but it seems to be a Rubicon specific AI intended as a liaison for augmented humans and various AC services. But the timelines for this would have ALLMIND be made in the era of the institute. ALLMIND being an AI built on a coral infrastructure seems almost guaranteed. With coral slowly developing its own intelligence what happens when you build up an AI on an independently intelligent substrate? ALLMIND having personal motivations or even conflicting objectives now seems inevitable.

Branch really is a dropped thread. Feels like its asking to be the DLC.

[Tsar Platinum]

Originally posted by Albireo:

You folks realise Fires of Raven kills everyone too right? It's easily the most genocidal outcome as Rubicon is left a lifeless rock and the damage stretches out elsewhere, no one in the plot survives.

ALLMIND notably is not too explained but it seems to be a Rubicon specific AI intended as a liaison for augmented humans and various AC services. But the timelines for this would have ALLMIND be made in the era of the institute. ALLMIND being an AI built on a coral infrastructure seems almost guaranteed. With coral slowly developing its own intelligence what happens when you build up an AI on an independently intelligent substrate? ALLMIND having personal motivations or even conflicting objectives now seems inevitable.

Branch really is a dropped thread. Feels like its asking to be the DLC.

A Branch DLC would be sick. Also I just realized the joke. Branch, like a tree branch. And one of the members is named Raven. Like a bird, and how they sit on tree branches and make nests