Does playing older AC games ruin this gen AC games?

[Strider]

Title, kinda.

I'm really enjoying AC6, A LOT. It's made me want to give the series a go, but a lot of the veteran commentary states this generation is missing some of the core tenants of the series (e.g. customizability, difficulty, balance, radar, etc.).

If I go back and play the others, will I end up being kinda jaded with the new direction, or does it stand well enough on its own?

Ignorance is bliss, is what I guess I'm kinda saying.

[MONSTERDROID]

Originally posted by Outsider:

Nope.
All AC games are good, except maybe for FA, which barely mediocre.

Maybe you are mistaking AC4 for AC4:FA? I heard AC4:FA was the better one & that Nexus, Nine Breaker, AC4, AC5, were the bad ones.

I've personally only played through the 3rd gen Armored Core games (AC3, AC3:P, AC3:SL:P, AC3:LR:P) so I can't say much about the newer or older stuff myself.

I am probably going to play through the older stuff soon, but I wish FromSoft would sell remakes or remasters, or even just port all the stuff to pc with updated controls so I could support the series again.

Only reason I am holding off on buying AC6 is because of the mixed views on it (It is very different from the old games it looks like), & I'm waiting to see if Payday 3 will backtrack & remove the always online requirement I might buy that if it does, that or I may even just get an Iphone SE for my birthday instead idk, I'm still thinking about it all. I really do want to buy AC6 though, still just sorta disappointed that the soundtrack only has a few good tracks while all the Old Armored Cores had many great soundtracks.

[Tustle]

Y'know what OP? Jump in anywhere you can and or want to, Nexus was the first game I got and served as my introduction to the series. To my understanding it was also one of the first entries that went what I think of as the sane way of mapping camera controls, to the right thumb stick as opposed to the shoulder buttons which felt really weird to use when trying some of the older entries afterwords.

...the 'good' news is you just need a PS3 with PS2 backwards compatibility and you can then basically play every entry from 2 onwards. The problem is finding the games. And or a PS1 if you want or get your hands on the first generation of Armored Core games.

[Blackmage]

Originally posted by MONSTERDROID:

Only reason I am holding off on buying AC6 is because of the mixed views on it (It is very different from the old games it looks like), & I'm waiting to see if Payday 3 will backtrack & remove the always online requirement I might buy that if it does, that or I may even just get an Iphone SE for my birthday instead idk, I'm still thinking about it all. I really do want to buy AC6 though, still just sorta disappointed that the soundtrack only has a few good tracks while all the Old Armored Cores had many great soundtracks.

Yeah, it is very different. AC6 leans heavily into the power fantasy, until you get to the bosses. The missions are pathetically easy, but they're more fun than the bosses, which is really kinda sad.

The bosses are the only challenge AC6 has to offer - and you will want to cheese through them with double shotguns. It won't be fun, but it's better than staring at your loading screen when you reload the checkpoint every two minutes.
Yeah, checkpoints... ugh.

Money is plentiful, there is no debt.
You can go to town with your guns because ammo management is out the window. The free supply drops will keep you topped off.
Replaying missions is no longer a post-game bonus. You can grind them for money mid-game, not that you should need it.

As a fan of all the classic games and the 4th gen games, there is a lot to not like about AC6. It's not going to make my top five, but it's not a dirty cash grab like Nine-breaker, and it's miles better than AC5 for sure. I might also rate it slightly highly than AC2 Another Age because at least AC6 has is an interesting enough story, even if it is weird. And probably higher than AC4 because its does feel more finished.
But it's no AC2, AC3, MoA, Silent Line or AC4FA. I also rate both Nexus and Project Phantasma higher than AC6.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by Blackmage:

Originally posted by MONSTERDROID:

Only reason I am holding off on buying AC6 is because of the mixed views on it (It is very different from the old games it looks like), & I'm waiting to see if Payday 3 will backtrack & remove the always online requirement I might buy that if it does, that or I may even just get an Iphone SE for my birthday instead idk, I'm still thinking about it all. I really do want to buy AC6 though, still just sorta disappointed that the soundtrack only has a few good tracks while all the Old Armored Cores had many great soundtracks.

Yeah, it is very different. AC6 leans heavily into the power fantasy, until you get to the bosses. The missions are pathetically easy, but they're more fun than the bosses, which is really kinda sad.

The bosses are the only challenge AC6 has to offer - and you will want to cheese through them with double shotguns. It won't be fun, but it's better than staring at your loading screen when you reload the checkpoint every two minutes.
Yeah, checkpoints... ugh.

Money is plentiful, there is no debt.
You can go to town with your guns because ammo management is out the window.
Replaying missions is no longer a post-game bonus. You can grind them for money mid-game, not that you should need it.

As a fan of all the classic games and the 4th gen games, there is a lot to not like about AC6. It's not going to make my top five, but it's not a dirty cash grab like Nine-breaker, and it's miles better than AC5 for sure. I might also rate it slightly highly than AC2 Another Age because at least AC6 has is an interesting enough story, even if it is weird. And probably higher than AC4 because its does feel more finished.

I really still don't understand why you have so much difficulty with the bosses in this game.
How do you usually fight them, just for curiosity?

[Blackmage]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Originally posted by Blackmage:

Yeah, it is very different. AC6 leans heavily into the power fantasy, until you get to the bosses. The missions are pathetically easy, but they're more fun than the bosses, which is really kinda sad.

The bosses are the only challenge AC6 has to offer - and you will want to cheese through them with double shotguns. It won't be fun, but it's better than staring at your loading screen when you reload the checkpoint every two minutes.
Yeah, checkpoints... ugh.

Money is plentiful, there is no debt.
You can go to town with your guns because ammo management is out the window.
Replaying missions is no longer a post-game bonus. You can grind them for money mid-game, not that you should need it.

As a fan of all the classic games and the 4th gen games, there is a lot to not like about AC6. It's not going to make my top five, but it's not a dirty cash grab like Nine-breaker, and it's miles better than AC5 for sure. I might also rate it slightly highly than AC2 Another Age because at least AC6 has is an interesting enough story, even if it is weird. And probably higher than AC4 because its does feel more finished.

I really still don't understand why you have so much difficulty with the bosses in this game.
How do you usually fight them, just for curiosity?

I don't struggle with them. I just don't like how they're designed, mechanically, and how the game focuses on the bosses more than anything else.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by Blackmage:

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

I really still don't understand why you have so much difficulty with the bosses in this game.
How do you usually fight them, just for curiosity?

I don't struggle with them. I just don't like how they're designed, mechanically, and how the game focuses on the bosses more than anything else.

If you have to switch to a dual shotgun build just to get by them while watching the loading screens, it really sounds like you are struggling to me.

Mechanically, they are essentially just giant ACs, but much slower and have down time where you can punish.

[Aldain]

The only thing going back to older games might spoil you with is choice of weapons, AC6 is one of the most lacking in weapon options across the whole franchise.

Even AC4 had more than 2 variants of most weapons, and most of them were actually distinct and worth using for different reasons/builds, AC6's weapons are mostly gradual replacements rather than sidegrades and some are just outright awful.

[Oobaneko]

Originally posted by Blackmage:

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

I really still don't understand why you have so much difficulty with the bosses in this game.
How do you usually fight them, just for curiosity?

I don't struggle with them. I just don't like how they're designed, mechanically, and how the game focuses on the bosses more than anything else.

Yup, lazy and awful designs with hurts the game more than anything else.

[Blackmage]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Originally posted by Blackmage:

I don't struggle with them. I just don't like how they're designed, mechanically, and how the game focuses on the bosses more than anything else.

If you have to switch to a dual shotgun build just to get by them while watching the loading screens, it really sounds like you are struggling to me.

Mechanically, they are essentially just giant ACs, but much slower and have down time where you can punish.

I struggled with Balteus, that was it. I actually had an easier time with the C-Spider. I beat it with a missile boat and stayed in the air the whole time. I figured out really quickly the best way to progress through the game is to basically ignore the rules the bosses set. Since I don't have to dance to their tune anymore I might as well switch to the meta build. I'm not punished for it at all. In fact, I'm rewarded for it by being able to progress the game. It's the equivalent of learning how to time iframes in Dark Souls.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by Blackmage:

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

If you have to switch to a dual shotgun build just to get by them while watching the loading screens, it really sounds like you are struggling to me.

Mechanically, they are essentially just giant ACs, but much slower and have down time where you can punish.

I struggled with Balteus, that was it. I actually had an easier time with the C-Spider. I beat it with a missile boat and stayed in the air the whole time. I figured out really quickly the best way to progress through the game is to basically ignore the rules the bosses set. Since I don't have to dance to their tune anymore I might as well switch to the meta build. I'm not punished for it at all. In fact, I'm rewarded for it by being able to progress the game. It's the equivalent of learning how to time iframes in Dark Souls.

What are even the rules that the boss set? The closed arena thing? Most bosses don't require any specific strategy or loadout, except the Ice Worm.

Like you can just straight out ignore their pattern and stagger them to death.

[Blackmage]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Like you can just straight out ignore their pattern and stagger them to death.

That's my point, and why the bosses are so badly designed.

Since you can ignore their attack patterns with stagger, why bother having the attack patterns at all? A better boss would force the player to play against the attack patterns, use the environment to their advantage - something other than a DPS race where you force a stagger to cancel out their gimmick.

Classic casual platformers like Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon all did boss design better. And Shadow of the Colossus is peak boss design, especially Gaius and Barba.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by Blackmage:

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Like you can just straight out ignore their pattern and stagger them to death.

That's my point, and why the bosses are so badly designed.

Since you can ignore their attack patterns with stagger, why bother having the attack patterns at all? A better boss would force the player to play against the attack patterns, use the environment to their advantage - something other than a DPS race where you force a stagger to cancel out their gimmick.

Classic casual platformers like Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon all did boss design better. And Shadow of the Colossus is peak boss design, especially Gaius and Barba.

Shadow of the Colossus is a literal puzzle game. I never play Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon.

And no, I wouldn't say a game where you NOT have to learn the boss pattern is badly designed, because it essentially limits the playstyle and force you to be reactive instead of active.

A boss where you can out straight rushdown is much more fun and less limited to play, since you don't have to, you know, wait for it.
DMC3 has the best bosses, and you don't have to wait for them.

[Blackmage]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Shadow of the Colossus is a literal puzzle game. I never play Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon.

And no, I wouldn't say a game where you HAVE to learn the boss pattern is badly designed, because it essentially limits the playstyle and force you to be reactive instead of active.

A boss where you can out straight rushdown is much more fun and less limited to play, since you don't have to, you know, wait for it.
DMC3 has the best bosses, and you don't have to wait for them.

Are you saying games like Dark Souls and Armored Core are not puzzle games in their own right, that utilize reactive play? LOL

Every mission in the old games has a challenge you must solve. It's literally a type of puzzle. Good bosses are puzzles, not a DPS race.
The games are designed with the intention of the players being reactive. Timing a dodge or parry, that's reactive play. Timing a missile shot, or quick boosting out of Balteus's flaming sword, that's reactive play. That's how these games are meant to be played.

But you can ignore them because they have no real defense against the meta builds. That's how you know the bosses were lazily designed and the game's mechanics are unbalanced.

Like if you played the giant MT mission in AC3, there was no way you were cheesing that boss by turning off your brain and bum-rushing it with double shotguns and abusing a stagger bar. You had to use the environment as cover to avoid the missiles and shoot back, and watch your ass when it split in two, with the other half shooting grenades at you from other directions. That was the puzzle.

[Oobaneko]

Originally posted by Blackmage:

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Shadow of the Colossus is a literal puzzle game. I never play Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon.

And no, I wouldn't say a game where you HAVE to learn the boss pattern is badly designed, because it essentially limits the playstyle and force you to be reactive instead of active.

A boss where you can out straight rushdown is much more fun and less limited to play, since you don't have to, you know, wait for it.
DMC3 has the best bosses, and you don't have to wait for them.

Are you saying games like Dark Souls and Armored Core are not puzzle games in their own right, that utilize reactive play? LOL

Every mission in the old games has a challenge you must solve. It's literally a type of puzzle. Good bosses are puzzles, not a DPS race.
The games are designed with the intention of the players being reactive. Timing a dodge or parry, that's reactive play. Timing a missile shot, or quick boosting out of Balteus's flaming sword, that's reactive play. That's how these games are meant to be played.

But you can ignore them because they have no real defense against the meta builds. That's how you know the bosses were lazily designed and the game's mechanics are unbalanced.

Like if you played the giant MT mission in AC3, there was no way you were cheesing that boss by turning off your brain and bum-rushing it with double shotguns and abusing a stagger bar. You had to use the environment as cover to avoid the missiles and shoot back, and watch your ass when it split in two, with the other half shooting grenades at you from other directions. That was the puzzle.

To be honest, ER and DS games felt less puzzle game than AC6.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by Blackmage:

Snip

You can play AC and Souls as puzzles games, but they aren't puzzle games because your skills matter and there are options available.
You aren't forced to play a specific way to beat the any boss.

A puzzle game is different, Shadow of the Colossus requires you to do specific every times to kill a boss, that's actually crappy design compared to the design of actual action games like DMC3.

And there's definitely way to cheese the giant MT in AC3 man. Like, it's on Youtube.