Light builds kinda suck...

[HumanDude]

So I've been trying to run a light build through the whole game and it feels good till it doesn't... There been a lot of cases where I'm using a light build (ya know the fastest thing in the game) and I struggle to dodge attacks. Now I heard you aren't suppose to be able to dodge everything but that kind of just doesn't make sense it terms of having light builds. I get it Light, Heavy, and Hybrid builds have their place and they want you to switch it out. That doesn't always feel like I earned the victory though... Mainly when every difficult situation I have is solved by one build all the time. At all points in the game a Heavy build will never not be good.

In a game where you will always get hit why would you not pick the mech with the highest HP, Stability and possible DPS. It just feels a little unbalanced. In the case of a Light build the only actual upside I can see it having is legit just speed. Of course that can be good against some enemies but it only seems like a small few. Light is fun regardless but the main issue I have with it is you WILL get hit and when you do get ready to restart the mission.

The main thing about Light builds is feeling fast and you'd think "hey I'm gonna be too fast to hit!. Which would seem like the point of a light mech. Maybe its a little to simple minded of course its gonna have other benefits i suppose but when you are so weak you would hope dodging is going to be something you can do. Now yes you do dodge more attacks with a lighter mech but it doesn't feel that big...

This starts with mainly bosses. A lot of the time when it came to fighting higher HP enemies like bosses the endurance test on your AC's dodging wasn't really there. If you so happened to end up with an attack that had a fast travel time if you weren't far away enough of even just positioned in a way to prevent the attack from even coming out you ARE getting HIT. There's just realistically some situations where a boss will so happen to start charging one of these attacks while backing away from you so it would realistically be impossible to dodge one of these attacks.

At this point during these fights I couldn't help but feel that my ability to not get hit was entirely up to the boss and it deciding if it even wanted to do this attack to begin with. If it so happened to do this move and back away I'm getting hit. Typically these moves do tell you when its targeting you and when its gonna fire but again if you are too close YOU ARE GETTING HIT. The tracking is going to correct if you dodge too early but its also going to hit you if you don't dodge at all. Anywhere between these two states is going to result in you getting hit no matter what.

It truly seems like a poor design choice for what reason? What reason is there to punish what i'd take as just skill. It would give people another way to do bosses adding to the replayability of them. I don't possibly seeing it taking away from the fact you can just build a stronger mech which would just be the easier option. Right now I can tell that a good amount of dodging some of those attacks can be skill but also RNG. I don't know a single soul who has dodged the sea spider or Snail V.II Baulister consistently.

I am making this post though not fully knowing if these attacks can be dodged but if they can It has to be by 1 frame or something so BS. If not though Im welcome to being proved wrong because then i learn something new. I've yet to see a no hit on all bosses in the game so thats where I feel we can have a light mech which solely relys on the ability to avoid all attacks. It just really feels awful when what you are doing is determined by RNG.

Tell me your thoughts and yeah thats was like a couple sentences on how i feel about this. Thank you for reading.

[MadArtillery]

I think perhaps your light build is just using the wrong thrusters or you just don't gel well with lights. Going light build is how I got past any boss I got stuck on. Like Ibis for example, my usual build sucked for ibis and with a bit of practice I actually managed to nearly no hit it. A lot of thrusters is personal preference, but the difference in how a light with duration, vs thrust, vs rapid fire QB, probably matters more then the difference between even biped light or reverse joint light, though I do think Biped is just better for lights as staying on the ground without that reverse hop helps keep things more controlled imo, always felt like overcommiting. The only boss I'd probably not fight light is C-Spider though it's how a lot of people beat that too.

[BKo]

Light builds only automatically evade normal attacks. Attacks with predictive aim still need to be dodged with QB. Unfortunately you have to figure out which attacks are which, or try to QB everything and run out of energy.

In AC history, I agree light builds could have been better. They sacrifice almost everything, AP, defense, energy, heavier weapons, heavier cooling (or, more stagger in this game), just to be a little faster. But I think this is one where they're the most viable. Lightweight cores having modifiers to things like booster output helps a lot.

[Sharkofspace]

Every time I try to switch off my light build I just can't progress. This game feels like your choices are full tank or full speed, and anything else is just a waste of time.

[Mesond]

Originally posted by HumanDude:

So I've been trying to run a light build through the whole game and it feels good till it doesn't... There been a lot of cases where I'm using a light build (ya know the fastest thing in the game) and I struggle to dodge attacks. Now I heard you aren't suppose to be able to dodge everything but that kind of just doesn't make sense it terms of having light builds.

If a fast fireing submachine gun is shooting at you then you're going to get hit. This isn't Dark Souls.

Yuo can dodge the "heavy" attacks. It just takes practice and timing. Somehow I managed to do phase 1 CEL hitless and I didn't even try to do that. I have no idea how I managed that.

[Krono]

Just gotta pick the right weapons to go with it I guess, something with impact to go with a hard-hitting melee weapon. Shotguns is the obvious meta answer, but you can get some good combos going when you mix stuff up with some kicks.

[ImHelping]

#1: Body booster AND energy stats matter, most 'light' torso outside of Super rusty have either trash output or trash regen. Try the mid weight VP torso with a bit over 100 in boost, and both energy stats.

#2: Don't underestimate non DLC melander legs, or of all things the BASHO legs.
Mel legs are reasonable and have lower drain so you can end up with 350 boost with the "favors normal boost" thrusters. Basho is chunky but has a "Jump distance" (the 'quick boost buff stat' just shy of light legs even if the vertical jump is ♥♥♥♥.

If you have 340-350 basic speed, you are "fast".

#3: Most light arms have a combo of good gun aim AND good melee. There are no "Good recoil and good melee" arms. light arms have some real benefits even if you like being heavy.

#4: AI basically cheats. ADMIT THIS.

If you admit the AI cheats, you will start consistently S ranking the nightfall duel with a laser dagger even at half health.

If you admit the AI cheats. Then you can kill Iblis with a pair of needle pistols and a single melee weapon. Because you know she will dodge to "Revolvers bounce haha idiot" range seeing handguns, but the weaker needle guns have closer to rifle range (Compare, dual rifles making bosses fly to 400 distance constantly instead).

If you admit the AI cheats, you will realize they start dodge canceling constantly at high stagger. One of the main results of me building faster and faster is watching enemies dodge cancel out of their red flash attack three times in a row rather than get staggered, hoping I think they are playing fair so they can shoot me with a 4th attempt. Know this, and you can actually stop and LET THEM SHOOT YOU with room to evade as a faster mech so you know their bazooka/grenade is on cooldown for sure (a real ass backwards tactic. Not skill based, just "Videogames are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" based)


Bringing it back to leg life. Even the flat stilt legs that are one of the slower light legs, have 100 range jump distance. high basic speed and good jump distance DO help. But you need to use the context help menu to know the counter intuitive name "Jump distance" means your side hopping power. Which makes it easier to evade bazookas even with a bad at quick boost thruster.

I have yet to make a "True" light build because I love my absurdly heavy FCS and 5k weight generator. (unless you count medium size reverse joint as a light build). But I do a lot of "Close enough" work to be 340-350 basic speeds.

Being faster, does help dodge. But being faster will not help you catch the AI more often as you would like, because they are bastards that can outlast you using an assault boost build just flying backwards forever in their football field arena.

[HumanDude]

Originally posted by Krono:

Just gotta pick the right weapons to go with it I guess, something with impact to go with a hard-hitting melee weapon. Shotguns is the obvious meta answer, but you can get some good combos going when you mix stuff up with some kicks.

Its more of just the dodge factor that i'm looking for. Like i said the feeling of light builds not being able to dodge some attacks really feels like a weird thing where again you are sacrificing everything else to be just faster...

[ajv941]

Originally posted by BKo:

In AC history, I agree light builds could have been better. They sacrifice almost everything, AP, defense, energy, heavier weapons, heavier cooling (or, more stagger in this game), just to be a little faster.

Ehhh, on paper. The reality is you can be a light build with basically all the heavy stuff on at the same time. FS isn't exactly good at making different build choices distinct... Something I wish they would get good at already ffs. The only builds that have a hard time qualifying for light speeds are the quad legs if you also want heavy weapons.

[ImpTaimer]

Both Light and Heavy builds are irrelevant in AC6 (atm) due to the simple fact that there's a maximum range limit. Light builds can't abuse the fact that Heavy builds are slow, and Heavy builds can't become glorified long-range turrets. The game is optimized around mid-range AC builds.

Light builds are further irrelevant because of the stagger system. All ACs have Quick Boost and Overboost, and don't require energy to Boost or turn quickly. The entire point of Light builds is being Energy efficient and having great mobility with and without using Boost. Because of the "cooldown" system you can't even utilize Energy weapons/blades.

Heavy builds are further irrelevant because all AC leg types operate on Human+ mode. You can safely fire large weapons without requiring to "kneel" or be stationary. There's no reward for being slow. The heaviest weapons in the game are not the strongest, nor do they require the heaviest parts to equip.

This only way to properly play AC6 is maximizing impact, speed, and stacking as much "health" as possible.

[Mesond]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

#4: AI basically cheats. ADMIT THIS.

If you admit the AI cheats, you will start consistently S ranking the nightfall duel with a laser dagger even at half health.

If you admit the AI cheats. Then you can kill Iblis with a pair of needle pistols and a single melee weapon. Because you know she will dodge to "Revolvers bounce haha idiot" range seeing handguns, but the weaker needle guns have closer to rifle range (Compare, dual rifles making bosses fly to 400 distance constantly instead).

If anyone's cheating it's you for using the cheap and easy shotguns.

Ai gets 3 heals. We get 3 heals. That's fair IMO. For the "humanoid" enemies at least. When you beat the enemy without cheating yourself the you win as the underdog. Try a "none easy" build.

[HumanDude]

Originally posted by MadArtillery:

I think perhaps your light build is just using the wrong thrusters or you just don't gel well with lights. Going light build is how I got past any boss I got stuck on. Like Ibis for example, my usual build sucked for ibis and with a bit of practice I actually managed to nearly no hit it. A lot of thrusters is personal preference, but the difference in how a light with duration, vs thrust, vs rapid fire QB, probably matters more then the difference between even biped light or reverse joint light, though I do think Biped is just better for lights as staying on the ground without that reverse hop helps keep things more controlled imo, always felt like overcommiting. The only boss I'd probably not fight light is C-Spider though it's how a lot of people beat that too.

Ibis is one of those bosses people have no hit right away though. It doesn't really have any of the attacks with an insanely fast laser attack. Dodging really isn't that bad with this boss due to a lot of the projectiles being slow. Also the fact you can just kill it very fast with some high dps builds. If i remember if you take long enough theres a rare laser attack again with a very fast travel time resulting in you most likely getting hit depending on how close the boss is. Its very much more noticeable on sea spider and Snail V.II boss fight or any other boss that often uses attacks like that.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by Veldaz:

Originally posted by ImHelping:

#4: AI basically cheats. ADMIT THIS.

If you admit the AI cheats, you will start consistently S ranking the nightfall duel with a laser dagger even at half health.

If you admit the AI cheats. Then you can kill Iblis with a pair of needle pistols and a single melee weapon. Because you know she will dodge to "Revolvers bounce haha idiot" range seeing handguns, but the weaker needle guns have closer to rifle range (Compare, dual rifles making bosses fly to 400 distance constantly instead).

If anyone's cheating it's you for using the cheap and easy shotguns.

Ai gets 3 heals. We get 3 heals. That's fair IMO. For the "humanoid" enemies at least. When you beat the enemy without cheating yourself the you win as the underdog. Try a "none easy" build.

Okay, what? I know people are desperate to defend any game as 120% perfection rather than "Great with some flaws"

But are you really pulling the "Shotguns are for babies!" card, even while quoting me listing a DUAL PISTOL BUILD!? Or laser daggers?

How can I be exploiting the fact the AI shamelessly cheats, unless it cheats? Yeesh. Do you think the AI actually so stupid it is just letting me win with weaker than revolver handguns out of pity?

[waffl]

Your full speed is only ONE speed, but you must use them all, even stopping completely.

You are controlling where the enemy hits, so you must choose anywhere that isn't your AC.

[HumanDude]

Originally posted by Veldaz:

Originally posted by ImHelping:

#4: AI basically cheats. ADMIT THIS.

If you admit the AI cheats, you will start consistently S ranking the nightfall duel with a laser dagger even at half health.

If you admit the AI cheats. Then you can kill Iblis with a pair of needle pistols and a single melee weapon. Because you know she will dodge to "Revolvers bounce haha idiot" range seeing handguns, but the weaker needle guns have closer to rifle range (Compare, dual rifles making bosses fly to 400 distance constantly instead).

If anyone's cheating it's you for using the cheap and easy shotguns.

Ai gets 3 heals. We get 3 heals. That's fair IMO. For the "humanoid" enemies at least. When you beat the enemy without cheating yourself the you win as the underdog. Try a "none easy" build.

No they have a point. Some of the AC's do have the ability to just fully cancel attacks we normally can't. If we wanna say things are equal that is not true. This games bit though is to drive you into using whats best because theres not much room for out maneuvering enemies for that long sense you WILL get hit. Hard builds aren't as fun because they have elements of rng with in them in my opinion. AC has from what i remember always wanted you to pick whats best because of this.

[HumanDude]

Originally posted by ImpTaimer:

Both Light and Heavy builds are irrelevant in AC6 (atm) due to the simple fact that there's a maximum range limit. Light builds can't abuse the fact that Heavy builds are slow, and Heavy builds can't become glorified long-range turrets. The game is optimized around mid-range AC builds.

Light builds are further irrelevant because of the stagger system. All ACs have Quick Boost and Overboost, and don't require energy to Boost or turn quickly. The entire point of Light builds is being Energy efficient and having great mobility with and without using Boost. Because of the "cooldown" system you can't even utilize Energy weapons/blades.

Heavy builds are further irrelevant because all AC leg types operate on Human+ mode. You can safely fire large weapons without requiring to "kneel" or be stationary. There's no reward for being slow. The heaviest weapons in the game are not the strongest, nor do they require the heaviest parts to equip.

This only way to properly play AC6 is maximizing impact, speed, and stacking as much "health" as possible.

Heavy builds do still work way more than light builds but yeah i think the game could benefit by giving different mechs more pros and cons. I might be bias here but i think light is certainly the only one getting the short end of the stick. I think though most people go hybrid build and yeah max out those stats you said.