Stagger

[Salty Slothy]

Got to be honest, I really don't think the Stagger system added anything of benefit to this game over the other armored cores. Seems like the constant being staggered by bosses with perfect accuracy is the only reason these boss battles are hard.

[Kinshorin]

I think my only problems with stagger is that some builds can essentially be staggered instantly, and that stagger is basically the only way to effectively deal decent damage... unless you go full energy build where you can chip away at others health slightly better outside of stagger.
Like its fine for boss fights, but for AC vs AC encounters its not really fun to do or deal with. It also makes it so that some weapons feel kind of worthless because they don't do much impact damage or direct hit damage.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Originally posted by sudebu:

no, i didn't; that's the problem.
i got better with sekiro.
here, there's nothing to challenge me to get better.
it's like if sekiro had an equippable that made it so any block, no matter how poorly timed, built up a ton of posture on enemies.

But in Sekiro, if you learn to parry, the whole game is effectively over.
In this game it's the same, it's about aggressive combat.

This is why I like this game better than Sekiro btw, because aggressiveness > passiveness, you are still essentially waiting in Sekiro.

I mean, to be honest a reason AC stagger is doing SOMETHING right is "You can still deal true health damage without stagger, technically". Instead of awkwardly having to chase them down to finish the job with a canned fatality.

Sometimes it works great in sekiro. Other times it is "oooooh. okay. I beat centipede idiot by not giving a ♥♥♥♥ about timing and just mashing the button. wow, trying to give a ♥♥♥♥ about depth like wearing down vitality to make staggering easier was for suckers."

even letdown chip damage is in AC6, is still a damage type that can finish the job without "one last stagger please, or ♥♥♥♥ off"

[sudebu]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

But in Sekiro, if you learn to parry, the whole game is effectively over.
In this game it's the same, it's about aggressive combat.

This is why I like this game better than Sekiro btw, because aggressiveness > passiveness, you are still essentially waiting in Sekiro.

it absolutely was not for me, which is why it took me 120 hours to finish Sekiro.
even if you can parry, you still have to deal with lunges, ranged attacks, feints, etc.
additionally the timing necessary for each enemy type was wildly different.
not saying one is better than the other, just saying my Sekiro journey definitely did not end at learning to parry.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by Kinshorin:

I think my only problems with stagger is that some builds can essentially be staggered instantly, and that stagger is basically the only way to effectively deal decent damage... unless you go full energy build where you can chip away at others health slightly better outside of stagger.
Like its fine for boss fights, but for AC vs AC encounters its not really fun to do or deal with. It also makes it so that some weapons feel kind of worthless because they don't do much impact damage or direct hit damage.

Energy build can stagger fine, just use plasma (rifles, missiles). Widely inaccurate tho.
Hell, every builds can stagger fine, as long as you can continuously do damage.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by sudebu:

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

But in Sekiro, if you learn to parry, the whole game is effectively over.
In this game it's the same, it's about aggressive combat.

This is why I like this game better than Sekiro btw, because aggressiveness > passiveness, you are still essentially waiting in Sekiro.

it absolutely was not for me, which is why it took me 120 hours to finish Sekiro.
even if you can parry, you still have to deal with lunges, ranged attacks, feints, etc.
additionally the timing necessary for each enemy type was wildly different.
not saying one is better than the other, just saying my Sekiro journey definitely did not end at learning to parry.

Uh, that's weird, but OK.
I don't think it costs me 120 hours to beat Sekiro.
But anyway, if you can parry, you can destroy bosses in Sekiro in MINUTES, just like in this game.

[Salty Slothy]

Originally posted by kaksus:

imagine being filtered by stagger

Imagine thinking I was filtered. Never said I gave up, just that I don't think it brings anything to the game. Keep trying though.

[Kinshorin]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Originally posted by Kinshorin:

I think my only problems with stagger is that some builds can essentially be staggered instantly, and that stagger is basically the only way to effectively deal decent damage... unless you go full energy build where you can chip away at others health slightly better outside of stagger.
Like its fine for boss fights, but for AC vs AC encounters its not really fun to do or deal with. It also makes it so that some weapons feel kind of worthless because they don't do much impact damage or direct hit damage.

Energy build can stagger fine, just use plasma (rifles, missiles). Widely inaccurate tho.
Hell, every builds can stagger fine, as long as you can continuously do damage.

I'm not saying Energy can't stagger fine, I know they can. Energy does more damage outside of stagger then kinetic weapons is what I'm highlighting. I can take someone down with energy weapons without ever staggering them (I know because I've done it before), but you can't really do that with kinetic weapons and some kinetic weapons just kind of suck all around compared to others or feel like they want you to load up 2 of them at once to be effective at all.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by Salty Slothy:

Originally posted by kaksus:

imagine being filtered by stagger

Imagine thinking I was filtered. Never said I gave up, just that I don't think it brings anything to the game. Keep trying though.

Well, it makes the boss interactive.
Imagine if this is like Souls boss where they don't stagger nor pose, and you just have to dodge and wait for opening.
Would that be funnier?

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by Kinshorin:

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Energy build can stagger fine, just use plasma (rifles, missiles). Widely inaccurate tho.
Hell, every builds can stagger fine, as long as you can continuously do damage.

I'm not saying Energy can't stagger fine, I know they can. Energy does more damage outside of stagger then kinetic weapons is what I'm highlighting. I can take someone down with energy weapons without ever staggering them (I know because I've done it before), but you can't really do that with kinetic weapons and some kinetic weapons just kind of suck all around compared to others or feel like they want you to load up 2 of them at once to be effective at all.

I do agree kinetics suck balls compared to energy and explosives yeah, outside chaingats.

Energy and explosives master-race.

[RX-3DR]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Well, it makes the boss interactive.
Imagine if this is like Souls boss where they don't stagger nor pose, and you just have to dodge and wait for opening.
Would that be funnier?

This is assuming you're just removing stagger without change anything else. If stagger wasn't just a free 30%++HP damage window, bosses would have been designed to have less health along with being better tamed to allow you more opportunity to attack with heavier weapons. I don't think any of the faster/late game superbosses would have flown in their current state if weren't for the fact that "Players can stagger them with their rifles so that they can shoot their bazooka so it's fine".

Would have actually resulted in playing aggressively being high risk high reward as opposed to the current state where once you're repeatedly staggering the boss, the game flips around into low risk higher reward.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by RX-3DR:

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Well, it makes the boss interactive.
Imagine if this is like Souls boss where they don't stagger nor pose, and you just have to dodge and wait for opening.
Would that be funnier?

This is assuming you're just removing stagger without change anything else. If stagger wasn't just a free 30%++HP damage window, bosses would have been designed to have less health along with being better tamed to allow you more opportunity to attack regularly. I don't think any of the faster/late game bosses would have flown in their current state if weren't for the fact that "Players can stagger them with their rifles so that they can shoot their bazooka so it's fine".

Would have actually resulted in playing aggressively being high risk high reward as opposed to the current state where once you're repeatedly staggering the boss, the game flips around into low risk higher reward.

Eh, so you want the bosses to have less HP and the stun would be longer? How would it make high risk high reward than the current implementation? In here, you are risking everything to deal damages in the hope of stunning the enemy.

And you can attack regularly in this game, attacking regularly is how you build up the stagger in the first place, so it's kind of moot point.

[SmallGespenst]

I feel like stagger is a good mechanic because it actively punishes the "pop in and out of cover taking single shots to ever so slowly plink down the enemy" kind of play that is as interesting as watching paint dry.
Oh no, the game say "hey, actually be aggressive" and you don't get completely stomped by bosses like Balteus where the playstlye you've been crawling through fights with falls apart when there's no cover.
Most arguments against stagger are just "waaaa a mechanic that looks slightly souls-ish, get it out!" or "but I want to play more boring!", and somehow I don't see a problem with the most boring play styles possible being mechanically unrewarding to push people to actually enjoy the game.

[ptp120122]

Originally posted by REBirthTheEdge:

Originally posted by Salty Slothy:

Imagine thinking I was filtered. Never said I gave up, just that I don't think it brings anything to the game. Keep trying though.

Well, it makes the boss interactive.
Imagine if this is like Souls boss where they don't stagger nor pose, and you just have to dodge and wait for opening.
Would that be funnier?

And this is exactly why it's a souls-like game, and not an AC game. Old AC games were hard on their own naturally without it being forced as a game scripted mechanics or gimmicks. There wasn't a need for boss interaction. They were giant war machines of terror being piloted by regular troops or pilots, in a similar manner Ace Combat's bosses are. Ace combat and armored core was similar in this form. They were soldiers and regular pilots, some pilots being better than others. Armored core has a super scifi setting to it, and gives opportunity for some crazy weapons and lore, but imagine if ace combat had a stagger build bar for jets.

The variety of enemies, volume of enemy fire, annoying jets, helicopters, artillery, how much armor you brought, how good you're paying attention to radar for incoming missiles, staying mobile, or even using cover to rest your generator and cool down radiator. It was face paced and tactical at the same time. You felt like a mercenary making scraps to buy new stuff.

[dr46onfusion]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

As the game goes on, you will realize the real issue is enemies start dodging way too fast after a stagger.

It is so shameless that a lot of my do overs on a boss or AC were because I kicked them in the head into a stun, and then they still sidestepped the follow up attack anyways while their meter was still flashing "hit me now for bonus damage!"

Even some of the elite MT get in on that action. The first Gundam Junior shield+bazooka PCA MT I fought was tougher than the entire AC arena up until that point. Because that is roughly when the game really ramps up the "Oh you staggered me? Well I am still going to probably dodge anyways."

When not floating in the sky while staggered, so your melee tracking glitches out because it can't handle "stab UP, stupid!" well. or a songbird shoots the grenades past either side of them instead of hitting them.

There is some sort of safety net in the stagger system, if you do 'too much damage' you get dps checked and the boss instant dodge.

I notice doing no damage at all when whittling down a boss AC's health and I'm hitting him with 20-30 missiles that makes contact. But the one thing that the system doesn't check is how much damage a single hit is doing, hence the piledriver can outright bypass this.

I use a standard single hit slower attack and a bigger chunk of stagger occurs, but hitting the boss 50 times in a second with my piles of rockets/missiles doesn't.

[REBirthTheEdge]

Originally posted by SmallGespenst:

I feel like stagger is a good mechanic because it actively punishes the "pop in and out of cover taking single shots to ever so slowly plink down the enemy" kind of play that is as interesting as watching paint dry.
Oh no, the game say "hey, actually be aggressive" and you don't get completely stomped by bosses like Balteus where the playstlye you've been crawling through fights with falls apart when there's no cover.
Most arguments against stagger are just "waaaa a mechanic that looks slightly souls-ish, get it out!" or "but I want to play more boring!", and somehow I don't see a problem with the most boring play styles possible being mechanically unrewarding to push people to actually enjoy the game.

It's not even a Souls-ish mechanic.
Bosses in DS1-3 cannot be staggered, only regular enemies.
Its implementation in Sekiro is also widely different (filled HP bar via parry = death enemy).
Here's it's closer to something like DMC3 or God Hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG3i28oZauE&t=220s