AC veterans and the new boss design

[Maria Sharapova]

I am genuinely curious to understand what was so much better in the old ACs and why are people bashing what to me looks like an obvious improvement.

This was my first Armored Core and I love it. Halfway through NG+ and getting S ranks to unlock everything.

It feels like a lot of veterans complain most about the boss fights being too hard and then proceed to talk how challenging the old games were. How were they challenging? By stat-checking you? By being bullet sponges? I don’t get what other type of challenge could there be in a game like this.

I’m a pretty die-hard souls fan that has beaten all the titles over and over again, and aside from the spectacle of boss fights, I found no souls similarities.

I didn’t feel the need to completely switch builds, I just made small adjustments here and there, but the vision I had for my build was the same from start to finish and it felt alright, as opposed to Elden Ring which absolutely screws over certain playstyles in a huge amount of encounters.

I didn’t feel the need to learn patterns. I couldn’t even if I wanted to, because everything was just so incredibly overwhelming. I just focused on reacting and adapting. That’s a huge difference to souls where I trial and error for hours (Im not very good at first tries, I just persevere) until I master fights.

Here, it felt more like mastering my *OWN* AC movement and abilities, rather than the boss’s, and after that, I could outplay everything thrown at me.

I even managed to kill the chapter 4 boss which people claim is hard in like 10 minutes, and the final boss in the first try.

For comparison it took me 20+ hours over the course of a week to beat Malenia in Elden Ring

So, what is the difficulty in the old games? I feel like this game can be played with any build, as long as you are good at it and understand your strengths and weaknesses, and can be made into a total joke the more you adapt your build.

Yes, I understand there are other great aspects in the old games: more depth, more customization, negative credits. I would have loved to see these features, but the biggest complain here is the bosses, and I genuinely wished they were harder. Maybe not 20 hours of Malenia levels of hard, but beating the last boss in the first try as a new AC player, with a build I designed myself and with 0 tuning for the respective fight left me wanting more.

I hope to find some more challenging encounters in the subsequent playthroughs and mission paths.

[sudebu]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Shin:

1. The vast majority of players aren't the ones complaining, if they were, this game would be reviewing like Left Alive and it's pulled 80%+ since its release, consistently. Even if the entirety of anyone reviewing below that was mad at the bosses or the gameplay structure, that's still less than a quarter of the players of the game who've reviewed it.

Trying to argue poor game design on a game with an 80% Positive rating across upwards of ten thousand reviews is kind of naff.

i wish people would read what i wrote instead of what they want to hear.
i'm not talking about the game overall, which i've praised multiple times and already cleared, i'm talking about the boss balance being ♥♥♥♥.
a game can be well designed and still have ♥♥♥♥♥♥ bosses; no game is perfect.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Shin:

2. This isn't valid. "I don't like how the game is designed" is not a rational, founded, criticism of the game. It's an opinion. It has no means of fighting back against. Because anything, anyone says will be met with "my opinion about the game being bad is more valid than what you are saying about the game being good."

in this case no criticism of anything is ever valid, nor is any praise valid, because at the end of the day it can just be chocked up to "well, that's just like, your opinion, man."
what a stupid, self-defeating argument.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Shin:

I didn't say anything about them complaining the game is too hard. What I said was their opinion doesn't align with reality. The reality is, the people with the problem are a loud, gnatty, minority of players who are upset they didn't research the game before buying it and expected it to be exactly perfect - and it made them mad instead.

This isn't valid. "They're just mad because they don't like the game" is not a rational, founded, criticism of them. It's an opinion. It has no means of fighting back against. Because anything, anyone says will be met with "my opinion about them being mad is more valid than what you are saying about the them having valid points."

[<Blank />]

Początkowo opublikowane przez LegendaryThunder:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Shin:

This is disingenuous. There were no perfect builds, but there were absolutely trash builds. It's arguable that the amount of builds you could totally make irrelevant in any game in Gen 3 far outweighs the amount of builds that don't work in 6.

There were literally weapons in 3rd gen designed to be awful.

Dear SlantedRhetoric I am formally requesting an apology for being compared to fatrick see above.

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

Bro "little gas lighter" is a Fatrickism if ever I've seen one.

I didn't even want to say anything but come on.

See above, please.

My mans, I've never butthurted anyone as hard as I've butthurted you since I was a teenager. Give it a rest and enjoy your block.

Please don't follow me around anymore, either.

[SlantedRhetoric]

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

i didn't say it was the "first" but keep trying to put words in my mouth.
crazy how the only example you can provide are the literal GIANT mobile fortresses, most which have VOB sequences set up specifically so you can easily see any of the attacks coming from a mile away and easily dodge them.
please don't tell me you actually had trouble getting to Motherwill.

The main reason I gave that as an example is this:

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

single attacks from bosses can drain more than half your life depending on your build, and they can also stagger you, setting you up for follow up attacks or chip damage from other attacks.
...
this was never an issue in earlier games,

Your wording "this was never an issue" implies that yes, it'd be the first time.

You're also complaining about one-hit high damage attacks that one-hit knockout, or OHKO.

So you're saying in this quote, that I was responding to, that there was never a situation in previous AC games that an enemy could OHKO. I responded with a link (that should have worked normally, don't know why it screwed up) of enemies from AC4/FA that did exactly that.

That's irrespective of the difficulty of the encounter, and even with that said I don't exactly have a difficult time imagining how someone with a build that had poor dodging or cruise speed could get screwed over by MW.

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

there's a reason why, once you get close to them, you're almost universally dealing with fodder enemies; it's because the Arms Forts are more levels than they are bosses.
is motherwill hitting you with that massive cannon while you hop around all over it, taking out it's defenses?
no?
there's a reason for that.

I'm going to be real, I can't remember most of the crap from previous AC titles as it's been over a decade and a half since I last played them, but I do remember the Fermi Flying Fortresses and how they too could OHKO if you tripped up.

Your point was "this (getting oneshot) was never an issue in earlier games". I pointed to multiple bosses that could easily do that.

Początkowo opublikowane przez LegendaryThunder:

Dear SlantedRhetoric I am formally requesting an apology for being compared to fatrick see above.

I apologize for the comparison if only because nobody should be compared to Fatrick, in hindsight.

[LegendaryThunder]

Ok cool he figured it out, but I'm to believe he figured out the AC6 bosses ez.

[sudebu]

Początkowo opublikowane przez LegendaryThunder:

To be honest the entire forum of AC6 souls fans has been a gaslight fest, when players eventually broke down and saw all it took to get a boss kill was a specific build compared to just toughing it out in AC1-4.

it is funny to see the general counterpoint being "ur just mad it's hard now" when AC6 is far and away one of the easiest games in the series.

[LegendaryThunder]

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

i didn't say it was the "first" but keep trying to put words in my mouth.
crazy how the only example you can provide are the literal GIANT mobile fortresses, most which have VOB sequences set up specifically so you can easily see any of the attacks coming from a mile away and easily dodge them.
please don't tell me you actually had trouble getting to Motherwill.

The main reason I gave that as an example is this:

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

single attacks from bosses can drain more than half your life depending on your build, and they can also stagger you, setting you up for follow up attacks or chip damage from other attacks.
...
this was never an issue in earlier games,

Your wording "this was never an issue" implies that yes, it'd be the first time.

You're also complaining about one-hit high damage attacks that one-hit knockout, or OHKO.

So you're saying in this quote, that I was responding to, that there was never a situation in previous AC games that an enemy could OHKO. I responded with a link (that should have worked normally, don't know why it screwed up) of enemies from AC4/FA that did exactly that.

That's irrespective of the difficulty of the encounter, and even with that said I don't exactly have a difficult time imagining how someone with a build that had poor dodging or cruise speed could get screwed over by MW.

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

there's a reason why, once you get close to them, you're almost universally dealing with fodder enemies; it's because the Arms Forts are more levels than they are bosses.
is motherwill hitting you with that massive cannon while you hop around all over it, taking out it's defenses?
no?
there's a reason for that.

I'm going to be real, I can't remember most of the crap from previous AC titles as it's been over a decade and a half since I last played them, but I do remember the Fermi Flying Fortresses and how they too could OHKO if you tripped up.

Your point was "this (getting oneshot) was never an issue in earlier games". I pointed to multiple bosses that could easily do that.

Ehhh barely, a handful could and there was a massive wind up and a small child could move away in its death spasms.

[LegendaryThunder]

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

Początkowo opublikowane przez LegendaryThunder:

To be honest the entire forum of AC6 souls fans has been a gaslight fest, when players eventually broke down and saw all it took to get a boss kill was a specific build compared to just toughing it out in AC1-4.

it is funny to see the general counterpoint being "ur just mad it's hard now" when AC6 is far and away one of the easiest games in the series.

You know what got people really mad? Going into " Please help me with this Boss" discussions and then dumping the build video in the first few posts and watching them shriek for telling the player what they needed to do exactly.

[SlantedRhetoric]

Początkowo opublikowane przez LegendaryThunder:

Ehhh barely, a handful could and there was a massive wind up and a small child could move away in its death spasms.

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

That's irrespective of the difficulty of the encounter,

I'm just saying, it was "a thing" before in the game series. It's not new to get oneshot and I find it funny that the bosses that could do one-shots were easier than the "bosses" that were just "hey fight 2+ ACs at once".

That five-mech fight for instance in ACFA.

[Midas]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Shin:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Midas:

There were absolutely perfect builds in old armored cores. There were definitely weapons and parts that were way too efficient for their costs and got used way more than others. I'm not sure how this is a balance issue either. Builds were whatever you wanted it to be in previous armored core games. In AC6 the builds actually matter, some things work better, some things work very poorly. You adapt and customize your AC to suit the situation, instead of having a one-size-fits-all approach.

This is disingenuous. There were no perfect builds, but there were absolutely trash builds. It's arguable that the amount of builds you could totally make irrelevant in any game in Gen 3 far outweighs the amount of builds that don't work in 6.

There were literally weapons in 3rd gen designed to be awful.

There is nothing disingenuous about it, and I never said there was nothing that was trash. But the fact remains that you could largely just play to your play style and make it work, you never had to even consider playing a tank if you weren't using a tank, or use lasers if you were just using kinetics, etc. You could basically play whatever your preferred playstyle was and ignore the vast majority of the other options and still do fine.

Though I'm not sure it's reasonable to compare variety in gen 3 to AC6. I don't think any other entry in the franchise had the sheer volume of options that AC3 had in its later games, so I'm pretty sure the amount of builds you could make in later gen3 titles would put any other generation to shame.

[LegendaryThunder]

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

Początkowo opublikowane przez LegendaryThunder:

Ehhh barely, a handful could and there was a massive wind up and a small child could move away in its death spasms.

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

That's irrespective of the difficulty of the encounter,

I'm just saying, it was "a thing" before in the game series. It's not new to get oneshot and I find it funny that the bosses that could do one-shots were easier than the "bosses" that were just "hey fight 2+ ACs at once".

That five-mech fight for instance in ACFA.

Alright, Alright, you got me on a technicality. You are technically correct which is the best kind of correct. Also thank you for the apology, you are truly an internet aristocrat.

Also I didn't want to log after being compared to a man who stumbled into success and then burned it to the ground, that would be unseemly.

[sudebu]

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

Your wording "this was never an issue" implies that yes, it'd be the first time.

You're also complaining about one-hit high damage attacks that one-hit knockout, or OHKO.

So you're saying in this quote, that I was responding to, that there was never a situation in previous AC games that an enemy could OHKO. I responded with a link (that should have worked normally, don't know why it screwed up) of enemies from AC4/FA that did exactly that.

That's irrespective of the difficulty of the encounter, and even with that said I don't exactly have a difficult time imagining how someone with a build that had poor dodging or cruise speed could get screwed over by MW.

I'm going to be real, I can't remember most of the crap from previous AC titles as it's been over a decade and a half since I last played them, but I do remember the Fermi Flying Fortresses and how they too could OHKO if you tripped up.

Your point was "this (getting oneshot) was never an issue in earlier games". I pointed to multiple bosses that could easily do that.

most of the arms forts couldn't one-shot you, tho.
even the heavy weaponry on the arms forts would take a couple direct hits to take you down, because you had primal armor.
the Motherwill cannons, the biggest i think?, were the same (maybe they could one-shot you on hard)
unless i'm wildly misremembering, but i remember eating a few of those shots and continuing with the mission.
you'd take big damage, yeah, but your primal armor would keep you alive.
and you can say "irrespective of difficulty," but watching these videos it makes it seem like the only way they can even hit you is if you accidentally fly into them.
i was trying to find a single video where someone got hit and i got tired of looking after the fourth video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHRWS2A0q2Y&list=PLDEBFCCBF0F8D2576&index=11

[sudebu]

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

I'm just saying, it was "a thing" before in the game series. It's not new to get oneshot and I find it funny that the bosses that could do one-shots were easier than the "bosses" that were just "hey fight 2+ ACs at once".

That five-mech fight for instance in ACFA.

like, i'm not trying to be a ♥♥♥♥ with this, but it just brings me back to "well yes but there was something vaguely similar in very specific situations in one or two of the previous entries"

[SlantedRhetoric]

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

I'm just saying, it was "a thing" before in the game series. It's not new to get oneshot and I find it funny that the bosses that could do one-shots were easier than the "bosses" that were just "hey fight 2+ ACs at once".

That five-mech fight for instance in ACFA.

like, i'm not trying to be a ♥♥♥♥ with this, but it just brings me back to "well yes but there was something vaguely similar in very specific situations in one or two of the previous entries"

Yeah and I'll go ahead and say that from what I've played so far, this game is easier than ACFA.

And you're really splitting hairs to try and justify your complaints. So far the only boss I can actually see as reasonable to complain about is Ibis. Ibis legit has ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ attacks in the second phase.

[LegendaryThunder]

Początkowo opublikowane przez sudebu:

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

Your wording "this was never an issue" implies that yes, it'd be the first time.

You're also complaining about one-hit high damage attacks that one-hit knockout, or OHKO.

So you're saying in this quote, that I was responding to, that there was never a situation in previous AC games that an enemy could OHKO. I responded with a link (that should have worked normally, don't know why it screwed up) of enemies from AC4/FA that did exactly that.

That's irrespective of the difficulty of the encounter, and even with that said I don't exactly have a difficult time imagining how someone with a build that had poor dodging or cruise speed could get screwed over by MW.

I'm going to be real, I can't remember most of the crap from previous AC titles as it's been over a decade and a half since I last played them, but I do remember the Fermi Flying Fortresses and how they too could OHKO if you tripped up.

Your point was "this (getting oneshot) was never an issue in earlier games". I pointed to multiple bosses that could easily do that.

most of the arms forts couldn't one-shot you, tho.
even the heavy weaponry on the arms forts would take a couple direct hits to take you down, because you had primal armor.
the Motherwill cannons, the biggest i think?, were the same (maybe they could one-shot you on hard)
unless i'm wildly misremembering, but i remember eating a few of those shots and continuing with the mission.
you'd take big damage, yeah, but your primal armor would keep you alive.
and you can say "irrespective of difficulty," but watching these videos it makes it seem like the only way they can even hit you is if you accidentally fly into them.
i was trying to find a single video where someone got hit and i got tired of looking after the fourth video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHRWS2A0q2Y&list=PLDEBFCCBF0F8D2576&index=11

I think the one time I ever got one shot, was the reactor is burning mission in AC2:AA and they destroyed the floor I was on and fell into a vat of lava because my AC was Phat.

The second time I got double tap'd and not one shot was the Kojima Missiles ambush mission, I'm trying to remember who that was. But at the same time it was Kojima missiles, those things are basically short range theater of war ICBMs. And the warhead isn't the goal for that weapon, its the fallout afterward, but I did get hit by two and KO'd before I knew what was going on.

Thing that I always remembered is you went back in and wrecked them, HOWEVER there is a fail state for missions if you do not savescum. Many missions would not let you back in if you failed them, I think maybe that is what the issue is.

[sudebu]

Początkowo opublikowane przez SlantedRhetoric:

And you're really splitting hairs to try and justify your complaints. So far the only boss I can actually see as reasonable to complain about is Ibis. Ibis legit has ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ attacks in the second phase.

my complaint was never that it was too hard.
my complaint was that the bosses are poorly balanced.
again, in older games, certain builds against certain bosses would make them EASIER; in AC6, it makes them EASY.
i went a bunch of rounds with Ibis, got frustrated and switched back to double-chain and double-iceworm and suddenly none of the flashy lasers or complex patterns mattered because i finished the fight with little effort and most of my life remaining.
it feels like the devs focused more on overwhelming the player rather than having AI that actually adapts, so when you can overwhelm the enemies instead, they just break.
it's why all the AC fights are so pitifully easy.