Sekiro stole Stagger from Armored Core, not the other way around

[Roland]

The current Stagger system is just the old Heat and Stability systems from PS2 era Armored Core combined into 1.

Personally I feel it's better than the previous, but still imperfect. I'd argue it's better because it makes more weapons "valid" for PvP, since previously it rarely made sense to choose Kinetic over Laser or Pulse.

It's obviously not popular, so how would you improve upon it?
I find it mostly fine except the build up is too quick when you get hit by more than 2 things at the same time.

[RadiantSilverGun]

ik the title is basically clickbait but it irks me
Sekiro enemies don't have a stagger bar
When you fill the posture bar you don't stun enemies you outright kill them.
Only one who gets staggered is the player and that's the game being unfair in the players's favor.

[Castile]

It's really simple, remove stagger. Damage is artificially reduced to give this one mechanic a meaning when you could just throw it in the trash. If you hit the opponent to deal damage, that's the reward, that action rewards itself. Why add extra steps when you could just put more effort into making fun parts and weapons?

They could even just make it a weapon specific mechanic if they want it so bad. We already have electrocute (dark souls bleed) and whatever the flame effect is called, both of which seem to be pretty garbage unless the weapon causing it is already strong anyway. Just remove stagger, replace bleed with a stun, and boom.

[Roland]

Автор сообщения: RadiantSilverGun

ik the title is basically clickbait but it irks me
Sekiro enemies don't have a stagger bar
When you fill the posture bar you don't stun enemies you outright kill them.
Only one who gets staggered is the player and that's the game being unfair in the players's favor.

Every boss in that game required multiple staggers, so no, you did not outright kill them, you stun them a few times first.

[sudebu]

Автор сообщения: RadiantSilverGun

ik the title is basically clickbait but it irks me
Sekiro enemies don't have a stagger bar
When you fill the posture bar you don't stun enemies you outright kill them.
Only one who gets staggered is the player and that's the game being unfair in the players's favor.

it's not clickbait, it's more or less true.
and you do stagger bosses.
for some of them, you need to do it three times before they actually die.
you can call it "posture" or "stagger" or whatever, it's mechanically the same concept.

[RadiantSilverGun]

Автор сообщения: Roland

Автор сообщения: RadiantSilverGun

ik the title is basically clickbait but it irks me
Sekiro enemies don't have a stagger bar
When you fill the posture bar you don't stun enemies you outright kill them.
Only one who gets staggered is the player and that's the game being unfair in the players's favor.

Every boss in that game required multiple staggers, so no, you did not outright kill them, you stun them a few times first.

They just have multiple healthbars
Like how many many many other games do
If you don't bother with the posture metre and just empty their health bar normally, you will have a short animation where you stab them and then transition to the next phase of the fight, exactly the same as if you did break their posture.
Also there are bosses that only have one life bar in sekiro
Emma for example

[Nate River]

Автор сообщения: HenloPeeps

Автор сообщения: sudebu

it's a trip to watch them finally be on the other side of "git gud," tho.

I disagree, I think the mechanics and style of AC6 is more representative of sekiro than AC- especially with the over reliance on staggering to win.
I also think its mostly the old AC players complaining, not the fs sekiro crowd who enjoy the bullshitty mechanics and the git gud mentality.



In the old Ac's you could straight up duke it out if you wanted- it was viable, even against bosses, this game places far more emphasise on dodging rather than countering and soaking up like the old AC's;

I.e where did the shoulder mount counter missiles/lasers go, why is it now an expansion slot active press item. Like why am I trying to dodge 30 missiles, and not neutralise say 10-20 of them and attempt to dodge the rest.

Why is scan an active button now and not a passive associated with the head like it used to be.

Why are bosses regularly firing giant beams of light that do high damage.


I think the answer is the devs can not move away from sekiro/bloodborne/souls and thus want to keep building fast paced combat activity built on dodging hits and staggering to counter.
Where as AC was more "Im in a robot, im going to get hit, I move alot slower, so does the other AC/LCs, when is it optimal for me to be hit, and when is it optimal to overload myself or my enemy".


Here is a link to what I personally think is the best one in the series, look at the UI and the reliance on thermal etc and how much slower the combat is. Get to 20 seconds and look at it.


Armored core2 vid

You still have blow up shield

I'm tired of people complain it's soul like. Souls game isn't as fast pace as this one. Sekiro is faster than Souls but it's the least soul-like and more of an action game. Elden Ring is Soul game with maybe some Sekiro bosses.

So blame Sekiro lol. And Touhou. And armored core too because now you have to think everything in 3d space because you and enemy could fly.

And blame Street fighter 6 because the director love this game alot and it may heavily influenced the pacing of combat.

[Roland]

Автор сообщения: RadiantSilverGun

Автор сообщения: Roland

Every boss in that game required multiple staggers, so no, you did not outright kill them, you stun them a few times first.

They just have multiple healthbars
Like how many many many other games do

Many other games do not interrupt an enemies attack when you finish one. (♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ask me about how I wish it did against Sephiroth on Hard in Kingdom Hearts. I dare ya lol)
You literally stun them out of attacks.

[AssessedMen]

Another thing that is unnecessary here is a repair kit.
In previouse AC we have like 20-40k from the start.
We have ~10k AP and 3 rep (~6k), so its 28 in total. Of course you can use non and go only 10k, but obviosly you will use them to heal. The heal is instantly, so there is no problem with using them mid combat.
Like there is zero need in them.

[Castile]

Автор сообщения: AssessedMen

Another thing that is unnecessary here is a repair kit.
In previouse AC we have like 20-40k from the start.
We have ~10k AP and 3 rep (~6k), so its 28 in total. Of course you can use non and go only 10k, but obviosly you will use them to heal. The heal is instantly, so there is no problem with using them mid combat.
Like there is zero need in them.

I honestly feel like they added repair kits for the player for the sole purpose of introducing healing as a concept so the player would be less confused when enemy ACs start drinking their estus flasks in later missions.

[Roland]

Автор сообщения: AssessedMen

Another thing that is unnecessary here is a repair kit.
In previouse AC we have like 20-40k from the start.
We have ~10k AP and 3 rep (~6k), so its 28 in total. Of course you can use non and go only 10k, but obviosly you will use them to heal. The heal is instantly, so there is no problem with using them mid combat.
Like there is zero need in them.

That's very off topic but it is an interesting point.
Though I would remind you there was 1 or 2 Extensions and Cores that had limited use AP restoration.
I don't know if having less hp overall is a positive or negative really though; feels kinda neutral when overall the game is still easier than the PS2 era thanks to you being faster now but projectiles not changing much, not to mention being able to use all the weapons at once.

[Nate River]

Автор сообщения: AssessedMen

Another thing that is unnecessary here is a repair kit.
In previouse AC we have like 20-40k from the start.
We have ~10k AP and 3 rep (~6k), so its 28 in total. Of course you can use non and go only 10k, but obviosly you will use them to heal. The heal is instantly, so there is no problem with using them mid combat.
Like there is zero need in them.

Repair kit is for pressing more pressure to you because you have check your health bar constantly .

[RadiantSilverGun]

Автор сообщения: Castile

Автор сообщения: AssessedMen

Another thing that is unnecessary here is a repair kit.
In previouse AC we have like 20-40k from the start.
We have ~10k AP and 3 rep (~6k), so its 28 in total. Of course you can use non and go only 10k, but obviosly you will use them to heal. The heal is instantly, so there is no problem with using them mid combat.
Like there is zero need in them.

I honestly feel like they added repair kits for the player for the sole purpose of introducing healing as a concept so the player would be less confused when enemy ACs start drinking their estus flasks in later missions.

The enemy AC's estus flasks ARE the repair kits.
I sorta hate the repair kits too, There's no risk to using them and I don't think I ever managed to die with repair kits left unused.

[Roland]

Автор сообщения: Nate River

Автор сообщения: AssessedMen

Another thing that is unnecessary here is a repair kit.
In previouse AC we have like 20-40k from the start.
We have ~10k AP and 3 rep (~6k), so its 28 in total. Of course you can use non and go only 10k, but obviosly you will use them to heal. The heal is instantly, so there is no problem with using them mid combat.
Like there is zero need in them.

Repair kit is for pressing more pressure to you because you have check your health bar constantly .

No you don't. The game literally tells you when you're at 50% and 30%.

It gives you every opportunity to keep your focus on your reticule and what's behind it.
edit:
I honestly wish I could turn off every HUD element that isn't the reticule or Compass, because it's all you need

[RadiantSilverGun]

Автор сообщения: Nate River

Автор сообщения: AssessedMen

Another thing that is unnecessary here is a repair kit.
In previouse AC we have like 20-40k from the start.
We have ~10k AP and 3 rep (~6k), so its 28 in total. Of course you can use non and go only 10k, but obviosly you will use them to heal. The heal is instantly, so there is no problem with using them mid combat.
Like there is zero need in them.

Repair kit is for pressing more pressure to you because you have check your health bar constantly .

You don't need to waste a window of opportunity that you could have used to attack like in souls games.
I don't think making repair kits take time would be a good change to be clear.

[Percopius]

Автор сообщения: HenloPeeps

Speaking purely as a game designer;
I'd get rid of the stagger.

You are right the old systems had the heat/thermal overload- which was actually good.
And it meant if the player or the enemy jetted around or shot to much they'd go offline for a few seconds.

So i'd return that system.
And I would apply it to all mechs not just the player.
Bosses too.

And if it doesnt work with bosses- then you redesign or scrap the bosses.

In another topic someone spoke of the stagger being needed for the heavy weapon to work (unguided, must be stationary to fire, etc), well the reason this wasnt a problem in the previous games was because of the heat system- no one could jet around forever, which meant slowing to a walk, and possibly getting hit by bigger weapons.


Like dragging over mecha Malenia for example was a poor design decision for AC.
Now they try to explain it away as "coral infused mech"- fine, but I got the coral boosters too, I am in the coral field too.
So why arent both of us going ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

The beauty of the old systems were you knew the player was limited AND the AI was limited which meant you planned more tactically instead of "how can I cheese this OP boss".

Bosses were in the old games but they were normally other AC's and the ones that were not were like 1 off bosses, because the whole point was mercenary AC's being hired by different companies to do nefarious things for corporate entities. And frankly this game has moved away from that.



So yea- get rid of the stagger mechanic, add a new thermal slot (similar to old AC's) and put more emphasise on thermal regulation for both the AI and the player.

Another game designer here. If you had heat management, it would slow down the game play to something more like Mechwarrior (which has heat management and is slower). Stagger would still be in the game as overheat recovery, except now you can stagger yourself (by using boosters and weapons), and you have enemies self staggering if they are allowed to make mistakes and overheat- or they don't boost or fire weapons to not overheat, and everything is slower (less booster use), and there is the issue of trying to avoid fire with boosters when you are near overheat and you either boost and overheat and get hit, or get hit which can overheat you. If you had ways to dump heat this could mitigate that, but if the enemy also could dump heat, the player can feel robbed when trying to apply overheat to a boss / AC and you have the question when you are allowed to dump heat, and you are adding another layer of complexity for the player (the player has to track heat added, heat release rate, and cool downs on weapons) / balance considerations for the designers. All of this would make dodging less effective and more risky, the Z axis gameplay less useful as you would be gaining heat as you were flying / hovering, and situations where enemies or you could not maneuver or fire for fear of overheating, and if you added heat management that would two additional things to track while fighting - how much heat do I have / will be added by fire, maneuver, or getting hit - when to use or if you can use a coolant flush.

As I said, Mechwarior has heat management, but its much slower and has no real dodging even with jump jets, thus is mainly played with the mech grounded. The absence of heat management in AC6 is a choice by the design team (they had it before, and its a good bet they played Mechwarrior), and what they wanted the game to be played like and what they wanted to focus on - aerial gameplay, viable dodging, fast tempo, and less complex cool down (heat up) management. I feel you could not really just add heat, it would require revising every aspect of the gameplay and changing the game to feel and play very differently if the heat management addition was meaningful and not a terminology flip.