ANSWERED - What is the advantage of having a lightweight / 'agile' AC?

[Crystal]

I'm really struggling :( I love the idea of being a fast AC, one that can get in close and do melee, or one that can kite things around. I want to be fast.

But.. I don't understand what my advantage is for the sake of pve arena battles:

- If I jump, I become an easy target. Missiles just follow me indefinitely.
- If I get in close, I miss anyway because they can move just as fast I can.
- My missiles never hit them, as even tanks posess the ability to boost around.
- If i quickboost, I still get hit by some things, and because my AP is lower these hits matter more
- If I get hit, I get staggered extremely easily
- Because I'm lightweight, I can't equip weapons that hit hard enough to stagger other people, and if I do manage to stagger them they recover quickly
- My quickboost isn't even that different compared to normal quickboosts, even with reverse-jointed legs. Sure I go a bit further, but what good does that really do when there's no iframes? Everything is tracking me anyway?
- The 'cool weapons' all have recoil, so when I use them I'm a stationary target anyway

It really feels to me that tanks or bipeds can go a lot faster (due to not stopping to fire), can carry more, can take more hits, can do more damage and can still quickboost and assault boost.

Can someone who's better than me give me some reasons why I should keep trying to play an agile build? Could it be that I'm just trying to do the arena too soon and maybe i should wait until I've beaten the story? I'm on rank D, and I'm at the beginning of chapter 3 (not done first mission). I wanted to do all the arena first before the main story as prior to this I've had a lot worse of an experience with the main bosses than the arena bosses. The arena bosses still feel fairer than the story ones, I'm just now thinking that it's my AC at fault?

What weapons are actually suitable for lightweight and agile builds? All the cool weapons require me to be stationary, so am I really just going to be flying around with machine guns and shotguns (they're cool don't get me wrong, but I really like the linear rifle)

[Balm]

the point of the light mech is to constantly be boosting and moving erratically to avoid incoming damage
your quick boost has greater 'impulse', that is to say you move faster and a longer distance in quick boost compared to heavier mechs, which means its easier to dodge things and more forgiving to time a dodge vs a big shot

you can use dual shotguns/rifles with a light mech, and two 10 tube missile launchers, which is more than enough firepower to dumpster anything in the game, I suspect its a good platform for melee also since you can always stay on top of something

there is nothing wrong with playing a sturdier mech in order to bring a great variety of heavy weapons, if you don't like the light mech playstyle

[Izuzul]

I love my light AC. Best damage mitigation is to not get hit.

[Svulnar]

Part of the beauty of an agile AC is your engagement range becomes: Whatever the hell you decide.

If you up your boost speed for your AC, you can get some rather impressive dodges going. For example, the first day I ran a heavier AC with around 250 boost with bipedal. I took a lot of hits, I handed out a lot of hits. Had some issues with a certain spider boss because I couldn't get out of dodge fast enough, and wasn't full tank enough to just eat the slams. I swapped some stuff around after that boss. Got boost up to 350 and went for inverted legs. My dodge distance double or more what it used to be.

With the increased boost speed and the extra oomph from inverted on ground based dodges, that are a lot of times I can just circle staff the games AI. On top of that, it allows for MUCH more aggressive play. Instead of having your enemy being able to dictate range or engagement speed, the extra boost/distance you can use... Makes it so you set it all. Couple this with a blade and you can zoom from 400m out to 100m in a second or less with assault boost, striking them with your blade. A heavier AC would take longer to get there.

In the moment, it feels like there isn't really all that much different between heavy or light. But in the thick of it? You are noticeably more capable of surviving by simply not being where the enemy is shooting anymore. Add in some zig-zags to throw off their auto target and a few jumps every now and then, and you become a bit of a nightmare to lock onto. Sure, a heavier AC can do similar, but slower. It might not seem by much, but definitely enough to make a different.

Oh, one last thing. There are certain weapons that gain damage bonuses based on your speed as well. So they gain dmg, when you are assault boosting towards an enemy. The higher your speed, the higher the increase.

Thank you for listening to my Ted-Talk.

[ImHelping]

Chasing S rank cares about repair bills which being able to evade better helps with. Though they also seem to care about speedrun times as well given one of my more heavy runs on a mission that went faster got S instead of A with literally only 1,000 more spent on repair and ammo.

Back mounted grenades are ALWAYS cool in any AC game. And enemies that recover too fast from stagger to the point they are already dodging with a red meter can still be smashed by them. Unlike stopping to swap to a stored hand grenade.

Lighter mechs also have more leeway in "stop to shoot" from a strong position against fodder. I use a laser cannon a lot even on a biped to erase fodder or even stationary sniper turrets before getting close (but that plays slow, so no S rank welp).

I don't even know if S rank replays even gives you anything in this game. but you know how nerd obsessions with letters can go.

[Crystal]

I think I might just avoid arena for now, I think I would love to give this playstyle a try but I only have one old pair of reverse joints so I can't really equip anything heavy. This tank fight is too fast for a shotgun (either that or my FCS is too outdated to keep up?). I too like the idea of dodging to avoid things, but I run out of energy too quickly and there's too many projectiles for me to uphold that playstyle :(

I think I just need some new parts so I'll just rush the main story. It's not like the OS upgrades are that good anyway

[Crystal]

Also I love the idea of double 10-tube missiles, but I don't have them yet. I think that'd be really cool though and would certainly help build up stagger :)

[REhorror]

Don't know either.
I always go heavy, I like my chunkyboi.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by Crystal:

I think I might just avoid arena for now, I think I would love to give this playstyle a try but I only have one old pair of reverse joints so I can't really equip anything heavy. This tank fight is too fast for a shotgun (either that or my FCS is too outdated to keep up?). I too like the idea of dodging to avoid things, but I run out of energy too quickly and there's too many projectiles for me to uphold that playstyle :(

I think I just need some new parts so I'll just rush the main story. It's not like the OS upgrades are that good anyway

Shotguns feels like such a tease against enemy AC. even on a light mech with high gunplay arms and the 'great up close, ♥♥♥♥ at the rest' FCS most shotgun blasts against an AC are "Raise shotgun. AC dodges, shotgun shoots where they used to be" and I literally land more shots with the laser cannon that locks me in place to fire on a biped.

It can ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wreck ninja MTs though. The awkward variance of "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ rules against normal enemies/things a stun lasts longer than 1.5 seconds
and "Good against a fellow biped AC" is also, a longstanding series quirk.

[Svulnar]

Honestly, when you hit chapter 3, you get access to a lot of good pieces. I would heavily recommend spending a few hours just staring at parts and trying to figure out how you want your mech to be. Take it for a quick test run, come back and fiddle more. Don't forget that you can press F in assembly to bring up MORE STATS. Some of them are very important, moreso than some of what the basic display shows.

[Towerdepths]

I actually ended up beating the game with an agile build. 8400 AP and reverse-joint legs. Two shottys, two dual grenade launchers. Fragile, but could rack up stagger and proceed to nuke HP like crazy.

To answer your points in order:

- Missiles have a finite time period they can track a target. Jumping in the air makes it harder to be hit, because now you can evade in three dimensions, not just two. It's also great for going over enemies using shields, since their shields don't work when you're directly above them.
- Missiles are primarily meant to be a pressure tool. If they hit, that's good and builds up stagger, but they are mostly for area denial and to force the enemy to spend energy evading them. If you want damage, you may want to look at other weapons. (See my comments below regarding the Dual Grenade Launcher)
- You may not be using the correct FCS. If you get in close, it starts using the 'close' score on your FCS to determine how well it snaps on to the enemy. Additionally, if you're using rapid-fire weapons like machine guns, your arms may not have a very good 'recoil' score, they may not have a very good 'aim' score, which makes it even tougher to track enemies. When in the Assembly screen, open up the details on your equipment and click the 'option' button (if you use controller). There's an option for detailed explanations for each stat category, which helped me realize what each score does for an arm, or a body piece, or a power core.
- You need to be much more careful with quickboosting, true. A reckless boost (or constant boosting) is an easy way to get smacked. However, having a fast quickboost means you don't have to be quite as precise with where you boost to (and helps you avoid faster beams/missiles/etc.)
- Also true. I've been staggered quite a bit, and it sucks. That being said, once you get the hang of faster mechs, you can weave in and out of fire with the best of them. It just takes practice.
- Because you're lightweight, you need to equip weapons more carefully in regards to your mission. Are you facing a lot of MTs? Best bring the Plasma Rifle since it can destroy your standard mook in one shot. Going to try Balthaeus again? You'll want to have your Pulse Repeater on hand, and a blade in the shoulder slot once that sucker is staggered. I haven't tried pistols, but I think they're actually really effective at staggering, but don't take my word for it.
- Just because they track doesn't mean they necessarily keep up. A quickboost in one direction, followed by a boost in the opposite once the enemy commits to an attack can open a foe up to a good hit.
- I use dual grenade launchers on both shoulders of my light AC. They make you pause, but their damage output is sublime, and they're surprisingly low-investment for their power all-around. If the enemy is staggered (usually due to a pair of shotties, occasionally followed by a kick), they do SO MUCH DAMAGE. Carried me through the game save for one mission where they just didn't have enough ammo. Even one is an excellent investment.

Is it easier? No way, you have much less padding, and you're going to feel that. Is it fun? Absolutely. There's something special about bouncing around enemies that travel the entire stage at warp speed, evading their attacks and proceeding to give them a faceful of lead the instant they stop within 500 feet of my boomstick-equipped mech.

It's not terrible in arena either, it's a matter of figuring out how to strafe around fire.

[Crystal]

Originally posted by Svulnar:

Honestly, when you hit chapter 3, you get access to a lot of good pieces. I would heavily recommend spending a few hours just staring at parts and trying to figure out how you want your mech to be. Take it for a quick test run, come back and fiddle more. Don't forget that you can press F in assembly to bring up MORE STATS. Some of them are very important, moreso than some of what the basic display shows.

You say that but I only have one pair of reverse joints from like mission 3 in chapter 1 so my weight limit is low and my generator doesn't have the capacity for the new things unless I go overweight, so I feel like I'm missing something.

It turns out I do have the 10 slot, I don't know how I didn't see it. The part purchasing screen is quite hard for me to see as the parts kind of all blend together

[Charsiew]

Hop above enemy AC, aim downward, fill it with lead & missile spam, and lastly appear behind them whenever possible. I always do that on reverse joint legs.

Personally, I find these Agile/Lightweight AC just appear to make opponent having motion sickness trying to lock on you.

Hop jumping dodge with lightweight/middle weight bipedal AC able to dodge most of shots, just like classic AC games.

[Crystal]

I beat it with double x10 missiles :) Also I learned a lot how to dodge thanks to everyone. Rather than trying to fly around and dodge, I instead split my efforts between ground dodging and air dodging, and using the jump button as a way of dodging. I'd stay on the ground and jump when needed, rather than as a way of getting and staying in the air. I thought that the ticket of being lightweight was staying in the air and dodging in 3 dimensions, but in a way I was only dodging in 2 dimensions, just in the sky and not on the ground. Falling and jumping was what beat that fight, and the 10 cell missiles helped me force the stupid guy to sit still :)

Thanks for believing in me. Onto the next one...

[Svulnar]

Originally posted by Crystal:

Originally posted by Svulnar:

Honestly, when you hit chapter 3, you get access to a lot of good pieces. I would heavily recommend spending a few hours just staring at parts and trying to figure out how you want your mech to be. Take it for a quick test run, come back and fiddle more. Don't forget that you can press F in assembly to bring up MORE STATS. Some of them are very important, moreso than some of what the basic display shows.

You say that but I only have one pair of reverse joints from like mission 3 in chapter 1 so my weight limit is low and my generator doesn't have the capacity for the new things unless I go overweight, so I feel like I'm missing something.

It turns out I do have the 10 slot, I don't know how I didn't see it. The part purchasing screen is quite hard for me to see as the parts kind of all blend together

Might want to use regular bipedal for now then. The early reverse joints have too low of a capacity to really... do anything other than really really really light weaponry. Tho, if only for a little while, could try down-scaling your weapons or bringing less. Have 4 is AWESOME, but, there is always the option to leave a slot empty.

My guns just revolted against me for saying this. Help.

[Svulnar]

Forgot to mention. With reverse joints... You can use jump to dodge even if you are out of energy for dodges. You just can't course correct or dodge during that jump due to no energy. By the time you land tho, its back.