Ineffective dodging

[EnemyStarship]

I feel like the dodge in the game isn't particularly effective, particularly against the bigger crabs, as before you've recovered from the roll, you get hit. Maybe it's just me, but just some feedback based on my experiences with the demo...

[pathtracer]

I completely agree, the game is super fun overall but the dodge needs some love. it doesn't seem like you can dodge sideways while locked on, only forward/back? makes it really hard to circle around the enemy and avoid damage.

it was difficult to avoid the vacuum suck-in attack on that one boss because I couldn't dodge sideways.

[EnemyStarship]

lol I didn't even get that far... I was doing a stream/video with some other demos and bailed after a bit/few deaths to play something else/show...

[pathtracer]

between the dodge woes and some iffy enemy telegraphs, I found the "slow down the game" assist option invaluable. (really wish all soulslikes had assist mode as an option lol) I'd recommend giving the demo another try with assist options if it interests you

[RUN PROGRAM > SENTIONAUTS]

Originally posted by EnemyStarship:

lol I didn't even get that far... I was doing a stream/video with some other demos and bailed after a bit/few deaths to play something else/show...

Hah wanted to ask how far you got. Cause I felt the same at first but more I played it more I understood how it is. Ended up spending 2 hours in this demo before I finally beat it!

In other souls-likes you can either dodge trough attack, using the i-frames OR dodge out of the way.

But here enemies have insane reach and trying to dodge out of the way hardly ever works. You either need to dodge trough the attack at right time (thinking back at it, tutorial even says this is exactly what dodge is for) OR if you wanna create distance, just sprint away.

Once I realized that I started having much better time. The grappling hook is also very much VITAL for combat. You can spend your hook to deal quickly with enemy that is annoying to fight otherwise, I was about to just delete the demo after first few deaths by the "archer" crabs thinking they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, till I realized I have ranged attack of my own.

But I totally get what you mean still. Their reach is not just long it's even longer than it looks like. It's like every attack includes lunge forward to get extra reach and it just ♥♥♥♥♥ with you. More so combined with dodge that covers barely half of it's length.

[StarvingGecko]

I have been curious about how important dodge is due to how certain enemy attacks exist seemingly to punish it, like the second boss in the Expired Grove's melee followup in the second phase and even the tutorial boss at points: parry doesn't seem to apply to the tutorial and even a successful one doesn't seem to stagger boss attacks - if anything both of the Expired Grove encounters hinged largely on my using the fishhook (the first boss goes down like a chump and it's vital for getting big hits on the second) and that's a resource that is limited in supply unlike the dodge.

The entire time I played through the demo twice, I've been feeling like I've been missing SOMETHING gameplay-wise, and I'm not sure if it's merely the dodge times being extremely strict, or something else. I'm just hoping the game gets the polish it needs before release because I thoroughly enjoyed my time with it and the dev's last game.

[SaSSolino]

It was perfect if you ask me, you just need to learn the active frames of bosses.

[pathtracer]

Originally posted by StarvingGecko:

The entire time I played through the demo twice, I've been feeling like I've been missing SOMETHING gameplay-wise, and I'm not sure if it's merely the dodge times being extremely strict, or something else.

for my money I think it's both the very strict dodge timings, and the deceptively short distance you travel while dodging. makes it a lot harder to dodge through attacks when you can only roll forward/back.

[IndigoAK]

I thought the game was just not registering button inputs or something, an incompatibility with my controller maybe, but simply not being able to dodge role left or right makes a lot more sense of why I was getting so frustrated.

[Morse]

You definitely can dodge, i feel like the game is meant for you to use your shell for parrying/blocking more often than not. The dodging frames are just really, really tight and its gonna be easier for most people to block.

[weirdee]

I've noticed that the game really wants you to rely more on blocking/parrying, because some of the attacks are just going to be impossible to dodge either because they're way too fast, or because the game simply just doesn't make them telegraph the attack at all (your only real warning is that over time you'll learn to recognize what triggers that attack condition). That's also why there's a ton of shells littered around the area, and why you can use your hook to immediately snag and occupy a shell from a distance. Since you don't lose any speed at all while blocking, make like the hermit crab you are and scuttle towards them under your shell to anticipate any surprises. Like the game says, you will not take any health damage from a blocked attack unless the attack is unblockable, and the game outright warns you when that's about to happen. Shells are like extra health meters that you can rely on to soak enemy cheese, but they're also a resource you have to manage based on how many of them you see lying around and what kinds of shell attacks you prefer.

Blocking some kinds of attacks also sometimes pushes you into a rolling state where you can pseudo morph ball around the enemy and pop back out attacking.

Like the other person says, there are also times where you want to grapple an enemy, either because it's being a jerk and throwing stuff at you, or because it's in the middle of a crowd and you don't want to aggro all of them at the same time.

[pathtracer]

Originally posted by weirdee:

I've noticed that the game really wants you to rely more on blocking/parrying, because some of the attacks are just going to be impossible to dodge either because they're way too fast, or because the game simply just doesn't make them telegraph the attack at all (your only real warning is that over time you'll learn to recognize what triggers that attack condition).

if it turns out the devs intend for us to focus on blocking/deflecting instead of dodging, I'm going to be pretty disappointed ngl. whenever a soulslike neglects dodging like that (sekiro, thymesia, lies of p), it always feels really bad to me. I really hope it's just a temporary oversight in the demo that will be resolved for the full game.

if not, well at least it's got the best assist options of any soulslike to date 😄

[TheShadowHatter]

I just finished the demo and the dodge does feel pretty stiff. I don't think that's the dev's fault though I just think it's the way the game's combat doesn't feel as weighty as it does when you're playing a Souls game as a knight swinging a heavy sword and so you're used to being able to dodge more effectively when you're used to the movement. Maybe in time we'll get used to the dodging here as well, but I agree that it doesn't feel as useful as it almost feels like the dodge doesn't happen when I hit the button, but maybe a split second later as if it needs to finish the attack animation before the dodge.

[Sol]

Souls game have conditioned players so the dodge button means "im invincible for 12 frames" button. The dodge is ok. It is a spacing tool rather than a get out of jail button.

[AGGRO CRAB]

We've made dodging a lot more effective since the demo, but you're a hermit crab so we still want you to block :)