The elf tax....

[Andra]

Played some 26 hours and completed a campaign with every character and my lord, elves need tuning down (specifically in campaign play). When I'm playing as them, it's trivial. When I play against them, it instantly makes my campaign harder. Most other factions I get past with minimal casualties, sometimes none, but I wince at every encounter with Elven conclave or deepwood, because their units are just too good at causing collateral damage via archers or suicidal charges with swift cavalry.

I know they're based off WHFB, which I played for several years back before GW killed it by making it Sigmar, but that was always balanced around the idea of pitched battles, with no objective beyond winning. Here, where conserving units with minimal casualties is key, the fact that they laugh in the face of your efforts by fielding so many bows - quite a few with re-rolls and huge range - makes it agony.

Almost forces me to push for full cav armies, which I typically do but can't always reliably roll. Currently running 3 abyssal warriors, northman inf and a lord on a carnosaur and I went from full on everything to lord dead, 1-3 on each unit remaining, one unit of abyssal wiped and norsemen wiped.

And that wasn't being outflanked or played, either. I had to march forward as full melee and that was just me taking the brunt as I mulched through their army. Sheesh.

Edit: Went on to win that campaign so I'm not talking about it being broken (esp. not in PvP where you don't need to save for the next fight) but they do feel about 3x as punishing as any other PvE faction you run into. It's almost arbitrary. Even the final battle of the campaign was easier than a non-elite high elf mob.

[Ilostmycactus]

Artillery is really good against them.

[Andra]

Gahhh. Did another 3-4 battles, minimal losses, got my army back - then ran into deepwood in a normal battle with 2x wayfarers, 2x archers, some wardancers. There goes 75% of my army again.

[Andra]

Originally posted by Ilostmycactus:

Artillery is really good against them.

Artillery is just too good period, so I don't really see this as a solution. Also, no arty in abyssal unless I roll lucky on events.

[Canadian_Zac]

Ranged is just a touch overtuned

The fact that Every model in a unit can shoot no matter the depth of the unit makes mass units of archers VERY Strong

Even Skeleton Archers i had were absolutely wrecking units after I stack their numbers up very high.

They could really do with a limit to the numbers that can shoot (i'd say only the front 3 ranks, so you still need to make them wide like a melee unit)

And give Artillery a penalty if they move before shooting, since, its artillery (and therefor also stop them moving if they shoot before moving)

And i think that should be plenty.

The power of ranged is semi countered by the fact it doesn't cause Morale like melee does, but its also bassically free damage, so it could do with a mild nerf.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Canadian_Zac:

Ranged is just a touch overtuned

The fact that Every model in a unit can shoot no matter the depth of the unit makes mass units of archers VERY Strong

Even Skeleton Archers i had were absolutely wrecking units after I stack their numbers up very high.

They could really do with a limit to the numbers that can shoot (i'd say only the front 3 ranks, so you still need to make them wide like a melee unit)

And give Artillery a penalty if they move before shooting, since, its artillery (and therefor also stop them moving if they shoot before moving)

And i think that should be plenty.

The power of ranged is semi countered by the fact it doesn't cause Morale like melee does, but its also bassically free damage, so it could do with a mild nerf.

To be honest, I think only the two first ranks should be able to shoot. In some older versions of WHFB, only the front rank could shoot, except if on an elevated position(like a hill), then 2 ranks could shoot.
By forcing ranged units to go wide, it makes them less mobile and takes up more space "on the front", making it harder to make those "move out of the way of charges and still shoot"-maneuvers. It also gives value to smaller, more elite archer units, as they would be more nimble(especially if they could get a special rule that allowed all models to shoot, no matter the formation, like the old Skirmish rule).

Allowing units to pivot on the spot should not give a ranged penalty, but movement followed by shooting should give a -1 to hit.

Overall, it would solve quite a few balance problems.

Currently, I dont mind smaller units of elven archers(when there are only 5-10 in a unit), as the few models, while still being able to deal decent damage(good range, good Skill, sometimes Elven Mastery), they can be whittled down to minimal threat fairly easy either through magic, your own ranged units or artillery.
At 15 models, it starts to become more of an issue, and when melee units like Elven Spearmen(with 15+ models) gets bows, it just break the balance.