So it's safe to say this was a huge success

[Tostado]

I counted over 3k players across all 3 games yesterday. For a niche series that seems huge, especially given the price of the games, and I wanted one of those special Switch editions from Japan but they were sold out. Give us EO6 Atlus.

[unit02]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

People say DS port as if is a bad thing, I loved the DS lol

I think there is one thing painfully clear tho looking at this forum, almost exclusively the people complaining don't own the game, for those who don't know, if they don't have the mouse symbol next to their name, they don't own the game.

Also an IP like yakuza will sell a lot more because it's way less niche, like way way way less niche, the target audience for yakuza is huge.

I don't mean the things like you read them.
I never said that the Nintendo DS was a bad console and i never said that the games were bad. But for me, and many other people, a port from a DS is just not the same as i.e. a port from the PS3. As far as i can tell, the game is mostly static 2D sprites, which is something different to let's say high resolution textures and 3D models. You don't have to compare that, but i do. Same for the audio, controls, etc.

And there is clearly a reason why people, who critize the pricing, are the people who do not own the game. You don't have to gatekeep anyone here on that point.

You also read something in my comparisson with the Yakuza series i wasn't pointing at at all. If you want to read the critic as something really negative and maybe negative towards you, feel free to do so. But I keep critizing the game for what i don't like about it. And at the same time, i will wait for my chance to get it. I want to play it, but not for that prize. Reason for that: read above without the salt.

We like the game. We are just not happy with some decisions around it.
And Atlus/Sega want and need feedback and that negative feedback is ours.

[Krude]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aris:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

Also an IP like yakuza will sell a lot more because it's way less niche, like way way way less niche, the target audience for yakuza is huge.

Yakuza used to be extremely niche. It gained a ton of fans with the Yakuza 0 remaster. The low release price allowed many people to "try out the game" (many didn't even know about the series). Now we even see old Yakuza games that weren't released in the west back in the day (Yakuza Ishin) being released now with good success. Atlus has missed the oportunity to make the same with EO.

I mean niche literally, yakuza isn't niche in that sense.

You are mistaking niche with popular/unpopular.

What niche means is the audience that a product will appeal to is very limited/small/specific.

the reason why yakuza isn't niche was that it was a game that wasn't niche but no one really knew about it, marketing changed that.

If you marketed EO hard enough, you still wouldn't get that many people, why? because this genre and type of game is: Niche.

"a specialized segment of the market for a particular kind of product or service. / denoting products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."

[Stoibs]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Aris:

Yakuza used to be extremely niche. It gained a ton of fans with the Yakuza 0 remaster. The low release price allowed many people to "try out the game" (many didn't even know about the series). Now we even see old Yakuza games that weren't released in the west back in the day (Yakuza Ishin) being released now with good success. Atlus has missed the oportunity to make the same with EO.

I want to say Yakuza 0 being in a humble bundle/choice a few years ago (and subsequently the rest appearing in various more) was a huuuuuge factor also.

I know I was never really interested or even knew what the series was all about.
Fast froward to rolling credits 80hrs later and being blown away by the 0 remake and I've been looking into the others/Day 1 bought Like a Dragon etc.

I dunno what I'm trying to say, maybe at the very least having some demo or something for us interested yet apprehensive non-fans to sink our teeth into would help with Etrian?

[derek_tah]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

Diposting pertama kali oleh derek_tah:

It was 3K users with all three games here on Steam not counting how it’s doing on Switch. Also it a relatively cheap game to make. I will say why Diablo week as their launch period is questionable.

You have no idea how much it cost to make/develop/port, stop pretending you do, otherwise give us a credible source on that information, one other than: "I made it the f up"

I know when you reuse assets it cheaper than making from scratch. Also it’s 2D game with no need for 3D motion capture and damage modeling, etc. It doesn’t take extensive knowledge to know this didn’t have the budget of a Final Fantasy 7 remake or Forspoken.

[Krude]

Diposting pertama kali oleh derek_tah:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

You have no idea how much it cost to make/develop/port, stop pretending you do, otherwise give us a credible source on that information, one other than: "I made it the f up"

I know when you reuse assets it cheaper than making from scratch. Also it’s 2D game with no need for 3D motion capture and damage modeling, etc. It doesn’t take extensive knowledge to know this didn’t have the budget of a Final Fantasy 7 remake or Forspoken.

Nah there's a deeper conversation on the subject of assets to go into if we bringing that in:

If you design a car, and then you sell that car, and make another car, is the second car worth less than the first one? no.

There's this incredibly entitled idea within the gaming community that actually harms us gamers a ton and that is that reused assets means less value, which is not true at all.

Why would they remake the assets, what if they did remake them but made them exactly as they were originally? we'd not know, but would the value increase?

Bringing up reused assets isn't a good counter-argument.

Also there's something incredibly ironic about saying a game doesn't have a big budget while so many people are arguing about the price being too high, how could the budget be higher if people don't want to pay for it.

Also for things like FF a ton of that budget goes into marketing, the rest goes into people's salaries etc.

In the grand scheme of things, whether making 2d or 3d is harder or easier means nothing when everyone is paid a salary based on time not difficulty.

Tho in my experience doing isometric work as well as 3d, each have their own difficulties and challenges, sprites ironically especially animated ones take a long time...

That's why untold onwards replaced the sprites with 3d models, it's cheaper and easier.

[gryphonv]

Diposting pertama kali oleh derek_tah:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

You have no idea how much it cost to make/develop/port, stop pretending you do, otherwise give us a credible source on that information, one other than: "I made it the f up"

I know when you reuse assets it cheaper than making from scratch. Also it’s 2D game with no need for 3D motion capture and damage modeling, etc. It doesn’t take extensive knowledge to know this didn’t have the budget of a Final Fantasy 7 remake or Forspoken.

Only an ♥♥♥♥♥ would think it would be on the level of a AAA game from Square.

I personally do have some insider knowledge about game dev costs. And even a 'cheap' game today can cost over a mil.

The cheapest indy mobile games with one dev can be 50k, some other indy games can approach 700k or even more. This is for indy mobile, which is the cheapest dev costs overall. These games are not indy, nor mobile.

We don't know much about the costs of this game, other than they paid for denuvo, and that alone most likely run them over 200k. I have numbers and in 2021 (last I checked with my sources) entry level denuvo packages were 150k Euro.

If they had a small team of say 10 on staff to make this game, that alone is approx 600k to 1m in salary alone per yea, being frugal. Not including equipment cost. THen you got other overheads, and fees like licences and distribution.

It's not a long shot to say these game cost 1-3m. With the limited info we have.

Edit: I will not be giving the source of this info, as I don't want to expose where I got it.

[Krude]

Diposting pertama kali oleh gryphonv:

Diposting pertama kali oleh derek_tah:

I know when you reuse assets it cheaper than making from scratch. Also it’s 2D game with no need for 3D motion capture and damage modeling, etc. It doesn’t take extensive knowledge to know this didn’t have the budget of a Final Fantasy 7 remake or Forspoken.

Only an ♥♥♥♥♥ would think it would be on the level of a AAA game from Square.

I personally do have some insider knowledge about game dev costs. And even a 'cheap' game today can cost over a mil.

The cheapest indy mobile games with one dev can be 50k, some other indy games can approach 700k or even more.

That is mobile.

We don't know much about the costs of this game, other than they paid for denuvo, and that alone most likely run them over 200k. I have numbers and in 2021 (last I checked with my sources) entry level denuvo packages were 150k Euro.

If they had a small team of say 10 on staff to make this game, that alone is approx 600k to 1m in salary alone per yea, being frugal. Not including equipment cost

It's not a long shot to say these game cost 1-3m. With the limited info we have.

Didn't I answer this already or was that elsewhere:

Triple A games are 200k.

This is not a triple A game, It's a double A game, the sweat spot between triple A and indie.

I know not many people are familiar with that term compared to the others, but it's more like 60k euro for double A. Tho that depends on a few things and there's technically extra costs based on time.

I'm guessing your information is from that crytek ♥♥♥♥? that price is ramping up every year apparently so it's out of date.


But yeah, you are right, running a game company is expensive af.


Atlus has 338 employees, and are a subsidiary of sega.

Relic Entertainment are also a sub of sega.

Relic Entertainment just axed half it's staff for not performing well enough in sales.


Just food for thought for anyone here who wants a EO6.

[derek_tah]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

Diposting pertama kali oleh derek_tah:

I know when you reuse assets it cheaper than making from scratch. Also it’s 2D game with no need for 3D motion capture and damage modeling, etc. It doesn’t take extensive knowledge to know this didn’t have the budget of a Final Fantasy 7 remake or Forspoken.

Nah there's a deeper conversation on the subject of assets to go into if we bringing that in:

If you design a car, and then you sell that car, and make another car, is the second car worth less than the first one? no.

There's this incredibly entitled idea within the gaming community that actually harms us gamers a ton and that is that reused assets means less value, which is not true at all.

Why would they remake the assets, what if they did remake them but made them exactly as they were originally? we'd not know, but would the value increase?

Bringing up reused assets isn't a good counter-argument.

Also there's something incredibly ironic about saying a game doesn't have a big budget while so many people are arguing about the price being too high, how could the budget be higher if people don't want to pay for it.

Also for things like FF a ton of that budget goes into marketing, the rest goes into people's salaries etc.

In the grand scheme of things, whether making 2d or 3d is harder or easier means nothing when everyone is paid a salary based on time not difficulty.

Tho in my experience doing isometric work as well as 3d, each have their own difficulties and challenges, sprites ironically especially animated ones take a long time...

That's why untold onwards replaced the sprites with 3d models, it's cheaper and easier.

The second car will be made cheaper because it doesn’t go through the R&D the first car went through. I may charge the same for both cars but one came with higher cost.

The point I was making about cheapness was about that it didn’t cost as much Forspoken, Final Fantasy, and other AAA games.

Also people complaining about the cost are complaining about the retail cost for buying the game not the production cost for making the game.

I also didn’t make any comment on easy vs harder to make just cost. Unless you brought in Disney studios for animation, 2D cheaper than 3D.

[gryphonv]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

Diposting pertama kali oleh gryphonv:

Only an ♥♥♥♥♥ would think it would be on the level of a AAA game from Square.

I personally do have some insider knowledge about game dev costs. And even a 'cheap' game today can cost over a mil.

The cheapest indy mobile games with one dev can be 50k, some other indy games can approach 700k or even more.

That is mobile.

We don't know much about the costs of this game, other than they paid for denuvo, and that alone most likely run them over 200k. I have numbers and in 2021 (last I checked with my sources) entry level denuvo packages were 150k Euro.

If they had a small team of say 10 on staff to make this game, that alone is approx 600k to 1m in salary alone per yea, being frugal. Not including equipment cost

It's not a long shot to say these game cost 1-3m. With the limited info we have.

Didn't I answer this already or was that elsewhere:

Triple A games are 200k.

This is not a triple A game, It's a double A game, the sweat spot between triple A and indie.

I know not many people are familiar with that term compared to the others, but it's more like 60k euro for double A. Tho that depends on a few things and there's technically extra costs based on time.

I'm guessing your information is from that crytek ♥♥♥♥? that price is ramping up every year apparently so it's out of date.


But yeah, you are right, running a game company is expensive af.


Atlus has 338 employees, and are a subsidiary of sega.

Relic Entertainment are also a sub of sega.

Relic Entertainment just axed half it's staff for not performing well enough in sales.


Just food for thought for anyone here who wants a EO6.

I can't give too much away, but I was in an adjacent industry, though last time I seen any data from Denuvo was really before Covid lockdowns really ramped up. I am no longer in the industry so not sure about current pricing. Though I expect as everything it's gone up. Where I guessed 200k for base line packages. I know they used to charge extra for multi platform games. Though sometimes companies can negotiate lower deals if they are repeat customers. It's still a massive added cost. One of which I don't feel is worth it.

I'm guessing the team for the remasters would be between 5-20. I can't see it being too much higher. But on the flip side I think a team of 5 would of been too restrictive.

I'm not familiar with Atlas employee structure, but i expect at least a few of the team members would be simultaneously working on different projects.

But yeah we both agree, running a game company is very expensive. I think many don't realise how much it costs.

[Krude]

Diposting pertama kali oleh derek_tah:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

Nah there's a deeper conversation on the subject of assets to go into if we bringing that in:

If you design a car, and then you sell that car, and make another car, is the second car worth less than the first one? no.

There's this incredibly entitled idea within the gaming community that actually harms us gamers a ton and that is that reused assets means less value, which is not true at all.

Why would they remake the assets, what if they did remake them but made them exactly as they were originally? we'd not know, but would the value increase?

Bringing up reused assets isn't a good counter-argument.

Also there's something incredibly ironic about saying a game doesn't have a big budget while so many people are arguing about the price being too high, how could the budget be higher if people don't want to pay for it.

Also for things like FF a ton of that budget goes into marketing, the rest goes into people's salaries etc.

In the grand scheme of things, whether making 2d or 3d is harder or easier means nothing when everyone is paid a salary based on time not difficulty.

Tho in my experience doing isometric work as well as 3d, each have their own difficulties and challenges, sprites ironically especially animated ones take a long time...

That's why untold onwards replaced the sprites with 3d models, it's cheaper and easier.

The second car will be made cheaper because it doesn’t go through the R&D the first car went through. I may charge the same for both cars but one came with higher cost.

The point I was making about cheapness was about that it didn’t cost as much Forspoken, Final Fantasy, and other AAA games.

Also people complaining about the cost are complaining about the retail cost for buying the game not the production cost for making the game.

I also didn’t make any comment on easy vs harder to make just cost. Unless you brought in Disney studios for animation, 2D cheaper than 3D.

3D on a basic level like the later EO games does it is a lot easier overall actually. Technology has come very far since the days of old. 2D stuff is rare now because it's so time consuming.

I've worked both sides, the moment you add in animations to the 2D side it can take incredibly longer. especially for things like fighting games, skullgirls is a great example of 60 frames of animation per second, where as other devs only do 30 per second using a blur frame in between. Ironically only indie devs now are willing to go that far, tho there's also 2.5d tech that's a lot better than what was around twenty years ago which was very basic 2.5d.

Due to the issues and time consuming nature of 2D, square enix has worked on HD-2D which is made in unreal engine which simulates the feeling of old school 2d and 2.5d games but with the advantages of development in 3D.

Basically we are living in the age of it's easier to make 2D via 3D.

There are some interesting articles on it on gamasutra that you should check out because I think you are missing some info on modern development.

I'm assuming you are someone with experience first hand with this in the industry but have been out of the game for a long time? The advances that have happened and keep happening are wild man. Very exciting times.

[Sabotaje]

That depends on how many users activated their copies for free.

[魔装機神 Psybuster]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

square enix has worked on HD-2D

More specifically, the absolute god-tier madmen of Asano Team at Squeenix have been doing that. I definitely recommend checking out their games, because they are definitely producing the absolute best works to come out of Square Enix in decades.

[Melodia]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fezes Liquefeitas:

That depends on how many users activated their copies for free.

You can't 'activate' something on Steam by pirating if that's what you mean. If it's not, then it's irrelevant to what the OP is talking about

[Krude]

Diposting pertama kali oleh 魔装機神 Psybuster:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Plastic:

square enix has worked on HD-2D

More specifically, the absolute god-tier madmen of Asano Team at Squeenix have been doing that. I definitely recommend checking out their games, because they are definitely producing the absolute best works to come out of Square Enix in decades.

Yeah, square enix new games are great. I'm hoping they make a final fantasy tactics A/A2 sequel in it.

[Mimi]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tostado:

I counted over 3k players across all 3 games yesterday. For a niche series that seems huge, especially given the price of the games, and I wanted one of those special Switch editions from Japan but they were sold out. Give us EO6 Atlus.

that's actually quite a lot for such niche games, must have done pretty well.

one thing people don't realize is, concurrent players is not, "3000 people are playing so 3000 people own it". that 3000 number has to be kept up with continual different players starting to play to fill the spots of players quitting. this isnt even counting the switch release either! the number is probably at least 10-20 times "active players" (players that play but are not online, not players that own it, just those that are still playing it daily), the concurrent players to keep that number up