Clutch behaviour completely unrealistic

[Marc Collins]

All my controls are set to linear and work properly according to the on-screen indicators. Therefore, we can conclude that the completely unrealistic clutch bite point physics are part of the design of the game. Like most console-based car games, some or all of the controls are set to work with gaming controllers and not authentic pedals.

The clutch bite point "curve" is literally inverted. Has EA/CM acknowledged this? You cannot properly operate a manual transmission car when 90% of the clutch friction occurs in the first 20% of pedal travel. And that's on the street. In wild rally stages, it simply ruins any immersion or realism of the game.

A simple fix...if someone recognises it.

[Coekie]

It was already a small bite point in dirt rally 2.0, but in wrc its even smaller. Its the only game where half my shifts are just grinding gears cause I can't get the clutch to engage.

[Marc Collins]

What I find highly disturbing about this design flaw is that it is exactly the same as WRC: Generations. The explanation there was that the clutch worked OK for full-bore launches with the hybrid cars. In other words, they were too lazy to program the hybrid system physics properly and apply them separately to only hybrid cars. They just manipulated the clutch so it would work for the important-for-licensing hybrid launch and forgot about everything else.

Two different clutch programmings are needed--one for the hybrids and one for the rest of the vehicles. The one for every non-hybrid car in the game is so obviously wrong that anyone who has ever driven even a road car with a manual transmission would notice. No need to be familiar with exotic rally cars.

So is it possible that EA/CM took the same unbelievable shortcut as their predecessors and didn't bother to have separate drive train physics for the hybrids? Or, did no one in the entire development process ever drive a real manual transmission car with a clutch? It's one of those two explanations....

There was so much time and attention put into the modelling of the stages, the vehicle sounds, and so many other details that it is like an insult to those rest of the team members that something so fundamental to every vehicle on every km of every stage gets treated like an afterthought.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

Is it possible to change without the clutch? I rarely bother with the clutch for upshifts & downshifts on my motorbike. EDIT: I don't drive a car irl though. They're far too boring :-)

[bazzalb]

Originally posted by Head_on_a_Stick:

Is it possible to change without the clutch? I rarely bother with the clutch for upshifts & downshifts on my motorbike. EDIT: I don't drive a car irl though. They're far too boring :-)

Manual Sequential doesn't need a clutch.

BTW, Its easy to find the "bite point".. Its on the floor :D

[Tracker_168]

No sim hardware is close to how a real clutch/manual transmission feels that its almost a moot point where the bite point is. The hardware is where the immersion breaker is for MT in games. You cant feel the bite point through your feet and the H-patterns dont have any feedback like a real car. A sim H-pattern lets you go through the motion but its like steering without ffb. All the shifts feel the same, no subtle differences between a 1-2 shift vs a 2-3 shift or 2-1 shift etc etc. Its numb and nowhere near realistic.

[Marc Collins]

Originally posted by Tracker_168:

No sim hardware is close to how a real clutch/manual transmission feels that its almost a moot point where the bite point is. The hardware is where the immersion breaker is for MT in games. You cant feel the bite point through your feet and the H-patterns dont have any feedback like a real car. A sim H-pattern lets you go through the motion but its like steering without ffb. All the shifts feel the same, no subtle differences between a 1-2 shift vs a 2-3 shift or 2-1 shift etc etc. Its numb and nowhere near realistic.

How does this make the slightest difference to the point that the game is programmed wrong?

If I am using the worst-quality clutch pedal known to man, I still need the game bite point and friction curve to approximate reality. Or do you disagree? The entire game is laughably unrealistic, but we still want the wheels to turn left when we steer left, no?

[Tracker_168]

If you want your bite point to be deeper in the pedal travel, why dont you just set like a 50% deadzone in your clutch setting. Sure it may increase the sensitivity of the clutch (not that it really matters in this game), but you can pretend its a race clutch with a sharp bite point.

But I stand by my point that no game in existence replicates the feeling of driving a manual transmission because there is no accurate ffb for the clutch or shifter. I drive a 6MT in real life. The sim driving experience (does not matter what game) is so far from real that I dont even use my H-pattern because its an immersion breaker. You just go through to motions.

Also your hyperbole about this game is laughably unrealistic makes me doubt your ability to be objective. I think you are just looking for things to complain about, making mountains out of mole-hills. This game is not perfect but its also not Mariokart.

[bazzalb]

I don't get the issue. The "bite-point" is on the floor. The moment you start lift/release the clutch pedal the clutch starts to bite.. So, the clutch is fully disengaged when your pedal is flat to the floor. Really don't get the issue.

As for the travel to full engaged.. mine is pretty much exactly the same in EA WRC as it is in AMS2.. Same 20% range, same bite-point (The floor).

[Tracker_168]

Wait, this guy defends AMS2, a game that has been out for years before figuring out they had a major tire physics bug. All the while, ragging on a game that came out 5 weeks ago.

BTW I love AMS2, its been my favorite track racing sim since the aformentioned update but still, its mind boggling that he makes such a big deal out of this aspect of the game. If he wants a more realistic pedal travel bite point, Im sure he can set it using his controller software as well by setting a deadzone on both ends of the travel.

[Marc Collins]

The clutch in WRC behaves nothing like the one in AMS 2. AMS 2 replicates a real car; WRC does not. Simple fix for the WRC one as I noted above. Just waiting for the devs to do it.

Excuses are not needed. The clutch bite curve also works like a real car in iRacing, AC, ACC, rF2, etc. WRC: Generations does not. EA WRC does not.

Some day we will have FFB on all pedals (it already exists for brakes)...until then also no need to waste time bemoaning that no clutch is truly realistic. Why ask for PhD level accuracy when we don't yet have kindergarten simple curves properly implemented?

[Marc Collins]

Originally posted by Tracker_168:

If you want your bite point to be deeper in the pedal travel, why dont you just set like a 50% deadzone in your clutch setting. Sure it may increase the sensitivity of the clutch (not that it really matters in this game), but you can pretend its a race clutch with a sharp bite point.

But I stand by my point that no game in existence replicates the feeling of driving a manual transmission because there is no accurate ffb for the clutch or shifter. I drive a 6MT in real life. The sim driving experience (does not matter what game) is so far from real that I dont even use my H-pattern because its an immersion breaker. You just go through to motions.

Also your hyperbole about this game is laughably unrealistic makes me doubt your ability to be objective. I think you are just looking for things to complain about, making mountains out of mole-hills. This game is not perfect but its also not Mariokart.

Some sims do have fully working clutch physics, but it is shockingly few of them and not perhaps the ones people would guess.

I don't expect a simcade game like WRC to have any sophisticated sim features, but come on, fixing a simple clutch bite curve that is completely inverted is not too much to ask. My original point was that there may be a reason for this...related to the hybrid car physics. You are knowledgeable and may have tried WRC: G--what do you think? Is there (even very simplified) hybrid physics programmed into WRC or not? Or, do all cars use essentially the same delivery of torque methodology?

[bazzalb]

Originally posted by Marc Collins:

I don't expect a simcade game like WRC to have any sophisticated sim features, but come on, fixing a simple clutch bite curve that is completely inverted is not too much to ask. My original point was that there may be a reason for this...related to the hybrid car physics. You are knowledgeable and may have tried WRC: G--what do you think? Is there (even very simplified) hybrid physics programmed into WRC or not? Or, do all cars use essentially the same delivery of torque methodology?

How did you measure this exactly? It still seemed to me like the majority of the "bite" occurs towards the upper end of the release travel of the clutch (not the initial lifting release).

ie, on the floor clutch is fully disengaged, as you lift clutch engages but it is fully engaged at around 25% of the travel (75% free travel). This is same as AMS2 for me. But also it seems like the majority of the "bite" occurs towards the top end of that 25% travel, not the initial. But I admit, its not easy for me to tell by just holding revs and gradually lifting to see when the clutch stops spinning and how much forward movement I get whilst doing it within the pedal travel range.

How did you measure the curve? I mean, I wouldnt be surprised if it was coded as just a basic linear (simple) relationship and not a curve, but surprises me its actually an inverted curve.

I doubt each car has different clutch settings, after all, the hybrids use manual sequential so no clutch necessary and yet you can play them with manual with clutch.

[Tracker_168]

Originally posted by bazzalb:

How did you measure this exactly? It still seemed to me like the majority of the "bite" occurs towards the upper end of the release travel of the clutch (not the initial lifting release).

ie, on the floor clutch is fully disengaged, as you lift clutch engages but it is fully engaged at around 25% of the travel (75% free travel). This is same as AMS2 for me. But also it seems like the majority of the "bite" occurs towards the top end of that 25% travel, not the initial. But I admit, its not easy for me to tell by just holding revs and gradually lifting to see when the clutch stops spinning and how much forward movement I get whilst doing it within the pedal travel range.

How did you measure the curve? I mean, I wouldnt be surprised if it was coded as just a basic linear (simple) relationship and not a curve, but surprises me its actually an inverted curve.

I doubt each car has different clutch settings, after all, the hybrids use manual sequential so no clutch necessary and yet you can play them with manual with clutch.

The Hybrids do use a clutch, for starting from a stop. Like a lot of sequential transmissions, once you are going, you dont need to use the clutch to shift. You also can clutch in on very slow and/or sharp turns, usually a very acute hairpin, so you dont stall the car (see Kalle's video below at around 2:05 min and 8:00 min), This aspect of the game is modelled actually as you can stall or at least bog a lot of the cars on some hairpins when using the handbrake.

The video is from a 2021 car. I couldn't find any videos of a Rally 1 car where the clutch is seen being used to prevent a stall except for one Ott Tanak video. It occurs going up hill after a few acute turns in a row. My impression is the Hybrid does not prevent the car from stalling but probably makes it harder to stall due to the extra torque when boost is available?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U1f2tvySBQ

[Tracker_168]

Originally posted by Marc Collins:

Some sims do have fully working clutch physics, but it is shockingly few of them and not perhaps the ones people would guess.

I don't expect a simcade game like WRC to have any sophisticated sim features, but come on, fixing a simple clutch bite curve that is completely inverted is not too much to ask. My original point was that there may be a reason for this...related to the hybrid car physics. You are knowledgeable and may have tried WRC: G--what do you think? Is there (even very simplified) hybrid physics programmed into WRC or not? Or, do all cars use essentially the same delivery of torque methodology?

I just went to see what the low speed clutch performance was like for this game.

I dont know what you are on about. My bite point is maybe 5% from full pedal depression.
It certainly is not at the 90% before reaching the bite point. To be perfectly clear, in this explanation, 100 is foot off the clutch and 0 is clutch pressed to the floor.

If stopped and you slowly release the clutch, once you are at the bite point if you slowly release the clutch a bit more, you can see the RPM drop from idle. I have an external DDU that shows the RPM as a digital number. If you are slow enough, the RPM will be below the idle but not stalled (ie burning the clutch). If you let out some more, it will stall. This seems pretty accurate to me!

The only thing that is a bit odd is that when you stop, the game automatically engages the handbrake or some kind of "hill-hold". This was on the 08 STI. You can hear the same sound effect as when you pull the handbrake, a faint click. On a slight hill, the car is held in place. If you apply any amount of throttle, this "hill hold" feature turns off and car rolls down the hill. If you try to feather the clutch with the "hill hold" feature on, it stalls. But if you get the car rolling even 1-2kmh, you can feather the clutch with no throttle and the car accelerates slowly, similar to a real manual transmission. I think its something with your system, if you are not getting this same response.

Also I did not play WRC:G enough to really analyse anything. It had at least two game breaking flaws. First, the throttle physics had a very weird torque limiter based on the gear you were in (Heusinkfeld made a video about this). And it had some sort of auto-clutch bug that made the 1st half of the throttle curve useless and when you stopped the car, sometimes it would not let you move again even if you were in gear and foot to the floor. There are videos of cars rolling backwards, while hitting the rev limiter in 1st gear. I had this bug often enough that I gave up after only putting a few hours into the game. Then it became Abandonware.

[bazzalb]

I think what he is saying is that from fully disengaged (floor) to fully engaged clutch, whatever this pedal travel distance is, 20% of this distance (not 20% of full pedal travel distance) is all that is required to reach 90% of clutch engagement strength (slip resistance), which leaves the remaining 80% of this travel distance only adding an extra 10% of clutch engagement.

What should happen is that the clutch bite start gradual and most of the engagement strength (resistance to slippage) should occur at the upper end of the engagement travel, ie the last part of the engagement travel, not the first 20% part. Hence why he thinks the curve is inverted.

But I could see no way to check this accurately so just did similar to you only with constant revs applied and still couldnt come to the same conclusions he did. Did exact same experiments in AMS2 and it seemed to have the same effect of revs at the same points.