This is why Veilguard is receiving so much hate

[ThespianMask]

(It's a half-rant, half-opinion piece)

Think about it. Dragon Age has ALWAYS had gay romance options. Zevran and Leliana in Origins. Everyone except Sebastian in DA2 are bi. Inquisition had Dorian for men, Sera for Women, and Iron Bull for both.

The "wokeness" of the DAV is not its main issue. The game is just an unfortunate victim of the times. If you REALLY think about it, DAV is not any more or less strong about its "wokeness" than it was before.

The first instance of hate I saw thrown against DA was about Krem in Inquisition. People were talking about how the game proselytizes about how Krem is a man, and that the Qun is accepting of it according to Iron Bull (which is odd, because the Qun don't have the concept of personal identity IIRC. Yes, I'm aware is not an adherent of the Qun.). Many anti-"woke" people felt that the game was talking down to them, as if treating the player as ignorant, and were forcing the issue.

I believe DAV is just the unfortunate victim of the following:

1. Bad Reputation - EA has a track record for being greedy, and BioWare has shown subpar output with Andromeda and Anthem. After those two blunders, who's going to pre-order a BioWare game?

2. The Culture War - We see it in general media news all the time. One side says "representation is good for everyone" while the other side says "Yeah, but you're actively warping the things we like to shoehorn it in." I can think of Star Wars, and The Witcher as very mainstream examples of the two sides clashing.

3. The Times - There's been a large pushback against "wokeness" in video games, particularly because one side is seemingly insistent on pushing it hard, whereas the other side wants to be left alone.

How do those three factors come together? Because of the rise of news regarding the dreaded ESG/DEI/SBI influence on games seemingly pushing for diversity first, quality second, many people are angry that DAV seemingly is leaning on the "woke" side (which I mentioned already. DA's always been that way).

Then, they point to the game director. One look at them and people are like "Oh no. This game is gonna bomb because it's diversity first, quality second." Unfortunately, it's a "judging a book by its cover" moment. It happens.

Let's bring it back to point 2: The Culture War.

Did general gaming populace care this about the romances I mentioned earlier in the earlier DA games? What about Mass Effect? Did people care that in ME3, you could get with Cortez or Kaidan as MShep, or Traynor or Kelly as FShep? What about FShep and Liara in ME1? There was no outrage. People didn't really care all that hard.

Now suddenly, the well-known "wokeness" of BioWare is a problem? Why? Because of trans top surgery scars and pronouns? No no no. That's a very surface level understanding of the hate it's getting.

Next, point 3: The Times.

Look at what the anti-"woke" people's number 1 enemy is right now. It's not the concept "wokeness". It's the fact that it's being pushed hard by people they believe have warped franchises they like in the name of DEI (and if you're really wanting to tinfoil it up, you could attribute it to being an ESG Score pump for that investor cash-money).

Let's set the record straight. Do the anti-"woke" crowd want DAV to fail directly because of the trans rep and top surgery scars? No, that's not why they're clamoring for it to fail or bomb. They want it to fail because they want to punish the people they think is responsible for destroying franchises they like.

"Maybe if DAV fails, more studios will stop working with SBI, and therefore, the franchises I like can stay the way I like them."

Ok, so how does point 1 play into all this? That's the simplest one. "Look! Game is woke garbage and pre-orders are low because of it!" Buddy, that's not why pre-orders are low. It's low because of what BioWare did with Andromeda and Anthem. They don't currently have a good track record, and potential customers are well within their right to wait and see before buying in.

[Ffabbia]

Originally posted by LuckyOwl:

Originally posted by Ffabbia:

I said it in an earlier post, I'll repeat myself.

If Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 1 were to be released right now, in the current climate their respective forums would be a solid wall of vitriol, hatred, and furious abuse aimed toward all the things currently aimed at Veilguard.

The problem with what you are saying is that I recently played Origins for the first time and found it to be an exceptional game, the amount of player freedom to doom or save lives was incredibly refreshing, I bet we will not see DAV allow us to choose if a child gets possessed by a demon so that we can gain more power.

Everything has to be nice and inclusive or funny/goofy now, this was a dark fantasy were women were kidnapped to become brood mothers (a part of the story I personally didn't think was good).

You're not thinking this through.

Of course you enjoyed Origins and Mass Effect. Both games are not part of a massive hate campaign across Youtube and social media, thus nothing has influenced your thoughts on either game and you've been left free to make up your own mind without outside interference swaying your opinions.

If Veilguard was just left alone you'd almost certainly enjoy that too.

And you're basing all your conclusions about Veilguard on supposition rather than facts, or personal experience. The game isn't out yet, so how do any of us know what the game's story content will include?

[Valkyria]

Originally posted by LuckyOwl:

Originally posted by Valkyria:

Sexism has no place in the community, period. I don't expect logical discussions from people who think giving someone a Jester award, somehow nullifies that persons opinion/argument.

it's not about sexism, it's about 21st century political ideology being put into a well established franchise, fans are just tired of seeing their beloved stories get corrupted by ideologues.

The Qun are not a friendly bunch, this has been well established. They are barbaric, but we are supposed to believe that they care if you identify as the opposite gender?

If you simply choose to not let little things bother you, life becomes a lot more fun.
There's so many things that I used to fixate on, be angry about and I let all of it go dude.

Life is too short to be angry over a DEI slider in a character creator.

[Ffabbia]

What if I were to tell you all that you could also make a female Qunari in Inquisition?

This notion that women can never be anything other than home makers or sex workers, and that "real work should be left for the dominant males" should have died out around 1918.

Unbelievable to see it resurrected in 2024. It like you lot are trying to put evolution into reverse gear.

[Jaeger Pilot]

Originally posted by Malamasala:

Culture war mainly happens when there is social engineering happening.

Offer a game to be played normally, and you get no complaints from the gamers. Normal Male/Female gender, normal attractive models, normal crude jokes and so on.

Then to appeal to "the modern audience", just make it a DLC. A DLC that replaces Male/Female with body type A and body type B. Removes most customization around women so they can't be made attractive. All sexy armor alternatives are blocked. All jokes are properly filtered to be non-funny jokes about the patriarchy and incels.

And behold. A game that caters to everyone, and has no controversy at all. (Except people mocking that there was only 8 people, all journalists, who downloaded the DLC. And the journalists dunking on the game because it doesn't properly remove content popular with men).

Also the fact that today you don't know if the game is the way it is because that's the way the developers wanted it to be, or if it's because of input from some kind of consultancy firm, or DEI initiative that gives financial rewards to publishers if they publish games with the DEI elements they want to see in modern games.

[LuckyOwl]

Originally posted by Ffabbia:

If Veilguard was just left alone you'd almost certainly enjoy that too.

And you're basing all your conclusions about Veilguard on supposition rather than facts, or personal experience. The game isn't out yet, so how do any of us know what the game's story content will include?

I doubt this very much, I don't let other peoples opinions influence me at all, I have played and enjoyed MANY games that have been at the centre of some sort of drama.

Just look at what has been shown so far and tell me in what way does this game resemble any of the past Dragon age games, we can't import our world state even though they have the Dragon age keep precisely for this, and the combat is nothing like the previous games where there was a clear deification of roles: Tank, Healer, dps. all of that is gone and now every class is a DPS, they said "The combat is actually fun this time..." excuse me?!?! but i enjoyed the first game and wanted a more fleshed out version of that.

[BornToFragAlpha]

Originally posted by Ffabbia:

What if I were to tell you all that you could also make a female Qunari in Inquisition?

This notion that women can never be anything other than home makers or sex workers, and that "real work should be left for the dominant males" should have died out around 1918.

Unbelievable to see it resurrected in 2024. It like you lot are trying to put evolution into reverse gear.

Except for the fact you -can't- make a Qunari in Inquisition. You and Valkyria are merely ignorant and injecting modern-day politics into a medieval society.

You are completely delusional and unable to separate art from the artist, real world from fiction.

You cry about sexism when the Qunari lobotomize people who do not adhere to their society's conformity. As previous user said, they are not good guys. They're savage, an embodiment of communism really, where the individual does not matter.

[LuckyOwl]

Originally posted by Valkyria:

Originally posted by LuckyOwl:

it's not about sexism, it's about 21st century political ideology being put into a well established franchise, fans are just tired of seeing their beloved stories get corrupted by ideologues.

The Qun are not a friendly bunch, this has been well established. They are barbaric, but we are supposed to believe that they care if you identify as the opposite gender?

If you simply choose to not let little things bother you, life becomes a lot more fun.
There's so many things that I used to fixate on, be angry about and I let all of it go dude.

Life is too short to be angry over a DEI slider in a character creator.

I never said I had a problem with a character slider, I said I had a problem with blatant retcons for political proposes, e.g. I always just assumed same sex relations was acceptable in Dragon age world, but then Dorians quest line changed that.

[Kegbelly]

read the cool factor thread , thats whats wrong .

[Valkyria]

Originally posted by BornToFragAlpha:

Originally posted by Ffabbia:

What if I were to tell you all that you could also make a female Qunari in Inquisition?

This notion that women can never be anything other than home makers or sex workers, and that "real work should be left for the dominant males" should have died out around 1918.

Unbelievable to see it resurrected in 2024. It like you lot are trying to put evolution into reverse gear.

Except for the fact you -can't- make a Qunari in Inquisition. You and Valkyria are merely ignorant and injecting modern-day politics into a medieval society.

You are completely delusional and unable to separate art from the artist, real world from fiction.

You cry about sexism when the Qunari lobotomize people who do not adhere to their society's conformity. As previous user said, they are not good guys. They're savage, an embodiment of communism really, where the individual does not matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDLmwpNmcsE

What's this then? Lol you don't even fact check anything before you post do you?

[BornToFragAlpha]

Originally posted by Valkyria:

Originally posted by BornToFragAlpha:

Except for the fact you -can't- make a Qunari in Inquisition. You and Valkyria are merely ignorant and injecting modern-day politics into a medieval society.

You are completely delusional and unable to separate art from the artist, real world from fiction.

You cry about sexism when the Qunari lobotomize people who do not adhere to their society's conformity. As previous user said, they are not good guys. They're savage, an embodiment of communism really, where the individual does not matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDLmwpNmcsE

What's this then? Lol you don't even fact check anything before you post do you?

Your lack of self-awareness is almost as amusing as your projection regarding incels.

That, is not a Qunari. That is a Vashoth. Someone born outside of the Qun, therefore -not- a Qunari.

What's it like living a life being objectively wrong all the time but have neither the humility nor the wisdom to do better?

The whole point of the discussion was Qunari culture, and their views. You perhaps would have been able to understand that, and infer the context if you were not so emotional. :)

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Originally posted by Valkyria:

Originally posted by Ffabbia:

What if I were to tell you all that you could also make a female Qunari in Inquisition?

This notion that women can never be anything other than home makers or sex workers, and that "real work should be left for the dominant males" should have died out around 1918.

Unbelievable to see it resurrected in 2024. It like you lot are trying to put evolution into reverse gear.

These are also the type of men who can't handle when a woman is stronger, taller or more physically in shape then they are. Classic incel behavior, that simply turns women away asap.

I'm convinced these people forgot you can make female Qunari in Inquisition as well. Lol.

You do not seem to handle criticism of your slops very well its seems. That's why insults are only things left for you to say.

[ThespianMask]

Originally posted by Valkyria:

Originally posted by LuckyOwl:

it's not about sexism, it's about 21st century political ideology being put into a well established franchise, fans are just tired of seeing their beloved stories get corrupted by ideologues.

The Qun are not a friendly bunch, this has been well established. They are barbaric, but we are supposed to believe that they care if you identify as the opposite gender?

If you simply choose to not let little things bother you, life becomes a lot more fun.
There's so many things that I used to fixate on, be angry about and I let all of it go dude.

Life is too short to be angry over a DEI slider in a character creator.

"If you simply choose to not let little things bother you, life becomes a lot more fun."

Actually, this is massively downplaying what your opposition is thinking. It's not a little thing for a game that's meant to immerse you in a fantasy world to suddenly break that immersion by having their civilization comprised of border-line extremist barbarians known for their lack of individual identities.... suddenly allow people to identify themselves as something other than their culture has branded them as.

We're not cherry picking. The Qun's established lore goes against how Iron Bull was presenting the concept of Aqun-Athlok. That's not a good sign unless there's some sort of Qunari cultural revolution in the works.


You can't say something like "Oh yeah? Why do YOU care." to someone who obviously cares about the franchise. They care because they don't want to see a franchise they like prioritize quality as anything other than the first priority.

[ArcaneSyntax]

Originally posted by BornToFragAlpha:

Originally posted by Valkyria:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDLmwpNmcsE

What's this then? Lol you don't even fact check anything before you post do you?

Your lack of self-awareness is almost as amusing as your projection regarding incels.

That, is not a Qunari. That is a Vashoth. Someone born outside of the Qun, therefore -not- a Qunari.

What's it like living a life being objectively wrong all the time but have neither the humility nor the wisdom to do better?

The whole point of the discussion was Qunari culture, and their views. You perhaps would have been able to understand that, and infer the context if you were not so emotional. :)

Hey Bronto, long time no see buddy. While yes the name for the Qunari people outside the Qun is vashoth, that is the Qunari name for them. The name given to them by everyone else is Qunari. Vashoth just describes their position within the Qun.

So if you saved the Chargers during Iron Bull's mission and he became Tal-Vashoth, is he not Qunari then? Would it matter what the people in the Qun call him if he's no longer a part?

[LuckyOwl]

Originally posted by ArcaneSyntax:

Originally posted by BornToFragAlpha:

Your lack of self-awareness is almost as amusing as your projection regarding incels.

That, is not a Qunari. That is a Vashoth. Someone born outside of the Qun, therefore -not- a Qunari.

What's it like living a life being objectively wrong all the time but have neither the humility nor the wisdom to do better?

The whole point of the discussion was Qunari culture, and their views. You perhaps would have been able to understand that, and infer the context if you were not so emotional. :)

Hey Bronto, long time no see buddy. While yes the name for the Qunari people outside the Qun is vashoth, that is the Qunari name for them. The name given to them by everyone else is Qunari. Vashoth just describes their position within the Qun.

So if you saved the Chargers during Iron Bull's mission and he became Tal-Vashoth, is he not Qunari then? Would it matter what the people in the Qun call him if he's no longer a part?

Tal-Vashoth means no longer Qunari.

[ArcaneSyntax]

Originally posted by LuckyOwl:

Originally posted by ArcaneSyntax:

Hey Bronto, long time no see buddy. While yes the name for the Qunari people outside the Qun is vashoth, that is the Qunari name for them. The name given to them by everyone else is Qunari. Vashoth just describes their position within the Qun.

So if you saved the Chargers during Iron Bull's mission and he became Tal-Vashoth, is he not Qunari then? Would it matter what the people in the Qun call him if he's no longer a part?

Tal-Vashoth means no longer Qunari.

Tal-Vashoth means no longer a part of the Qun, Qunari is also a race.