Litmus Test

[ThespianMask]

I'm buying this game so this is more of an engagement/mental exercise post. Personally, I don't mind the gay stuff. I've played FemShep and romanced Traynor. I've played MaleShep and romanced Kaidan AND Cortez. My favorite BioWare romances were playing as females and romancing the guys (Thane has the best romance. I will not take counterarguments.), and I'm a straight guy set to get married to my wife-to-be next year.

The common "anit-chud" statements making the rounds right now are:
"You don't have to pick the trans options."
"You control the buttons you press."
"No one is shoving it down your throat!"

And yes, I agree. They're optional. There's a whole lot of hate happening right now.

So here's a litmus test for you:

Would you be ok if there was a mod created to remove/hide the top surgery scars option in character creation, as well as the trans-affirming message seen in the IGN review footage?

After all one could say "You control the mods you download"?

I'm genuinely curious.

Personally, I think it's a waste of time to download such a mod because they're optional anyway, but would the existence of such a mod bother you?

[Itheline]

Originally posted by ThespianMask:

I'm buying this game so this is more of an engagement/mental exercise post. Personally, I don't mind the gay stuff. I've played FemShep and romanced Traynor. I've played MaleShep and romanced Kaidan AND Cortez. My favorite BioWare romances were playing as females and romancing the guys (Thane has the best romance. I will not take counterarguments.), and I'm a straight guy set to get married to my wife-to-be next year.

The common "anit-chud" statements making the rounds right now are:
"You don't have to pick the trans options."
"You control the buttons you press."
"No one is shoving it down your throat!"

And yes, I agree. They're optional. There's a whole lot of hate happening right now.

So here's a litmus test for you:

Would you be ok if there was a mod created to remove/hide the top surgery scars option in character creation, as well as the trans-affirming message seen in the IGN review footage?

After all one could say "You control the mods you download"?

I'm genuinely curious.

Personally, I think it's a waste of time to download such a mod because they're optional anyway, but would the existence of such a mod bother you?

brother, this game is not a game, is a lgbtq+ propaganda cartoon coloring book. im not even go pirate it less mod it

[Mumblez]

nexus mods would never allow it. They say they dont care, but they don't want you removing it.

This is why people hate it, it FEELS like the equivalent of trying to drug a dog by hiding drugs in cheese, which is really the point of DEI.

Except they want you to consume gay ♥♥♥♥

[Mysti_Fogg]

Because stuff is optional, I don't see why such a thing would be necessary.

However, if that's what float your boat, sure. You're never going to use those options.

I do find more issue with people who rip out actual bits of story (such as making Dorian straight, making Morrigan gay) to be ripping apart a story. I tend not to like such moves very much.

But that just means I don't follow them or watch their play throughs. I'd compare it to buying a piece of art and defacing it, except that the piece of art still exists for everyone else, so it's not the same.

Buying a book and ripping out the pages for scrap paper? Yeah. That's probably the right level. As a book lover, stuff like that irks me. But it's your property. I can't stop you, even if your actions make me involuntarily shudder with distaste.

[ThespianMask]

Originally posted by Mumblez:

nexus mods would never allow it. They say they dont care, but they don't want you removing it.

This is why people hate it, it FEELS like the equivalent of trying to drug a dog by hiding drugs in cheese, which is really the point of DEI.

There's more than just Nexus mods to distribute such things. My question is more of a mental exercise, not a logistics feasibility one.

[ThespianMask]

Originally posted by Mysti_Fogg:

Because stuff is optional, I don't see why such a thing would be necessary.

However, if that's what float your boat, sure. You're never going to use those options.

I do find more issue with people who rip out actual bits of story (such as making Dorian straight, making Morrigan gay) to be ripping apart a story. I tend not to like such moves very much.

But that just means I don't follow them or watch their play throughs. I'd compare it to buying a piece of art and defacing it, except that the piece of art still exists for everyone else, so it's not the same.

Buying a book and ripping out the pages for scrap paper? Yeah. That's probably the right level. As a book lover, stuff like that irks me. But it's your property. I can't stop you, even if your actions make me involuntarily shudder with distaste.

Ok making Dorian straight sort of ruins him as a character. His entire personal conflict is that him being gay is giving his family bad optics among the nobility, and making his father hate him for it, yeah? Making him straight destroys his entire character,

[Mysti_Fogg]

Originally posted by ThespianMask:

Originally posted by Mysti_Fogg:

Because stuff is optional, I don't see why such a thing would be necessary.

However, if that's what float your boat, sure. You're never going to use those options.

I do find more issue with people who rip out actual bits of story (such as making Dorian straight, making Morrigan gay) to be ripping apart a story. I tend not to like such moves very much.

But that just means I don't follow them or watch their play throughs. I'd compare it to buying a piece of art and defacing it, except that the piece of art still exists for everyone else, so it's not the same.

Buying a book and ripping out the pages for scrap paper? Yeah. That's probably the right level. As a book lover, stuff like that irks me. But it's your property. I can't stop you, even if your actions make me involuntarily shudder with distaste.

Ok making Dorian straight sort of ruins him as a character. His entire personal conflict is that him being gay is giving his family bad optics among the nobility, and making his father hate him for it, yeah? Making him straight destroys his entire character,

There are mods for it. I looked because I was curious to see if there was parity. And also his whole conflict is about being gay, so kind of weird. And they exist anyway.

[Havok]

I personally don’t understand how the writing in this game, a medieval fantasy RPG, can have a character actively use modern terminology. Subtext, would have gone so much further for me.

I could care less about gender politics. I just wanted a good game. My girlfriend, wanted a good game. She is Bi and I told her about what is going on and immediately she felt disgusted with the state of this game. Even a mention of the pronouns in character creator almost has her in a fit about how her beloved dragon age had fallen from grace.

So.. maybe it’s because my modded, risqué Skyrim has done far worse to me, I just care about the story and combat. I would have appreciated if the “wokeness” was more contextual undertones and subtext, rather than in your face about it

[Mysti_Fogg]

Originally posted by Dragon Master:

Originally posted by Mysti_Fogg:

Because stuff is optional, I don't see why such a thing would be necessary.

However, if that's what float your boat, sure. You're never going to use those options.

I do find more issue with people who rip out actual bits of story (such as making Dorian straight, making Morrigan gay) to be ripping apart a story. I tend not to like such moves very much.

But that just means I don't follow them or watch their play throughs. I'd compare it to buying a piece of art and defacing it, except that the piece of art still exists for everyone else, so it's not the same.

Buying a book and ripping out the pages for scrap paper? Yeah. That's probably the right level. As a book lover, stuff like that irks me. But it's your property. I can't stop you, even if your actions make me involuntarily shudder with distaste.

The issue is is that people actively don't like it being present and want mods to remove it, and they are banned for doing so.

I'm aware of the issue. I didn't ask why the question was asked. I answered the question. Which was "Would I be okay with mods to remove trans things from the game."

[ThespianMask]

Originally posted by Havok:

I personally don’t understand how the writing in this game, a medieval fantasy RPG, can have a character actively use modern terminology. Subtext, would have gone so much further for me.

I could care less about gender politics. I just wanted a good game. My girlfriend, wanted a good game. She is Bi and I told her about what is going on and immediately she felt disgusted with the state of this game. Even a mention of the pronouns in character creator almost has her in a fit about how her beloved dragon age had fallen from grace.

So.. maybe it’s because my modded, risqué Skyrim has done far worse to me, I just care about the story and combat. I would have appreciated if the “wokeness” was more contextual undertones and subtext, rather than in your face about it

They were able to invent a Qunari word "Aqun Athlok" for their transgender citizens. I don't understand why they couldn't make a Thedosian word for it, because "non-binary" implies they have a concept of "binary".

Actually, that does make me curious. what word WOULD they use if they didn't use the Qunari word or "non-binary". I would have liked to see some creativity there, instead of using the modernism term for it.

[ThespianMask]

Originally posted by Mysti_Fogg:

Originally posted by ThespianMask:

Ok making Dorian straight sort of ruins him as a character. His entire personal conflict is that him being gay is giving his family bad optics among the nobility, and making his father hate him for it, yeah? Making him straight destroys his entire character,

There are mods for it. I looked because I was curious to see if there was parity. And also his whole conflict is about being gay, so kind of weird. And they exist anyway.

Eh if people wanna download it to make themselves comfortable, that's on them. It's also on them to tolerate a resultingly badly-written character because a straight Dorian's backstory won't make any sense at all.

[Mysti_Fogg]

Originally posted by Dragon Master:

Originally posted by ThespianMask:

Ok making Dorian straight sort of ruins him as a character. His entire personal conflict is that him being gay is giving his family bad optics among the nobility, and making his father hate him for it, yeah? Making him straight destroys his entire character,

And it was only bad optics because of how prominent his family is and how his being gay meant that there wouldn't be any future children in the family line. His father didn't hate Dorian or want to hurt him but he did and regretted it ever since. That is the crux of the character quest, a remorseful father trying to make it up to a son who was scorned and feels hated because his father used blood magic to try and change him.

EDIT: Although it also makes sense if he is made straight though. Then that would be the change had taken place and Dorian feels violated for having his sexuality forcibly changed and have that be an interesting character arc to go through as he feels dirty romancing a female Inquisitor because he knows it isn't him.

As a matter of moral complexity, I would find such a story interesting. Though also extremely off putting. Wouldn't want that romance option. It would be like the James Vega romance option where you r*pe him in ME3. I know the option exits. I would never, ever use it. The idea just squicks me out.

I much prefer the original Dorian, especially considering how little gay representation there is. And also, I enjoy Dorian's company the way I enjoy the company of many of the gay guys of my acquaintance. Though I always feel weird with the natural answers to his dialogues being the flirty ones. None of my gay friends think I'm flirting with them when I'm just bantering.

[Havok]

Originally posted by ThespianMask:

Originally posted by Havok:

I personally don’t understand how the writing in this game, a medieval fantasy RPG, can have a character actively use modern terminology. Subtext, would have gone so much further for me.

I could care less about gender politics. I just wanted a good game. My girlfriend, wanted a good game. She is Bi and I told her about what is going on and immediately she felt disgusted with the state of this game. Even a mention of the pronouns in character creator almost has her in a fit about how her beloved dragon age had fallen from grace.

So.. maybe it’s because my modded, risqué Skyrim has done far worse to me, I just care about the story and combat. I would have appreciated if the “wokeness” was more contextual undertones and subtext, rather than in your face about it

They were able to invent a Qunari word "Aqun Athlok" for their transgender citizens. I don't understand why they couldn't make a Thedosian word for it, because "non-binary" implies they have a concept of "binary".

Actually, that does make me curious. what word WOULD they use if they didn't use the Qunari word or "non-binary". I would have liked to see some creativity there, instead of using the modernism term for it.

Agreed. That’s kind of my major turn off. I couldn’t care less about the subject, but just.. have the courage to be creative about it.

It really shows the quality of things where they couldn’t even invent a concept, or phrase/word for it and just used an IRL, modern term instead.

[ThespianMask]

Originally posted by Mysti_Fogg:

Originally posted by Dragon Master:

And it was only bad optics because of how prominent his family is and how his being gay meant that there wouldn't be any future children in the family line. His father didn't hate Dorian or want to hurt him but he did and regretted it ever since. That is the crux of the character quest, a remorseful father trying to make it up to a son who was scorned and feels hated because his father used blood magic to try and change him.

EDIT: Although it also makes sense if he is made straight though. Then that would be the change had taken place and Dorian feels violated for having his sexuality forcibly changed and have that be an interesting character arc to go through as he feels dirty romancing a female Inquisitor because he knows it isn't him.

As a matter of moral complexity, I would find such a story interesting. Though also extremely off putting. Wouldn't want that romance option. It would be like the James Vega romance option where you r*pe him in ME3. I know the option exits. I would never, ever use it. The idea just squicks me out.

I much prefer the original Dorian, especially considering how little gay representation there is. And also, I enjoy Dorian's company the way I enjoy the company of many of the gay guys of my acquaintance. Though I always feel weird with the natural answers to his dialogues being the flirty ones. None of my gay friends think I'm flirting with them when I'm just bantering.

Evil options in video games intrigue me. Defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes and "permanently" ending Leliana as a result was so intriguing to me. I like evil in games because I want to see how far writers and creative directors are willing to take evil in their games.

A blood-magic'd identity-erased Dorian would be like surrendering Shadowheart to the Shar temple for brain washing after romancing her. The ultimate betrayal resulting in total identity erasure. It's supposed to make you feel sick. It's fiction, and fiction should be a safe space for anyone to explore anything, effed up as it may be.

[Ronin Gamer]

I'm not opposed to such things, and I'd never mod it out. I still have the option to play whatever I want, and a ton of these dolts act like that one option is being force fed to them solely because it's not something for them and they've never had to deal with that.

Media for a long ass time was frequently aimed at one or two VERY specific groups, I remember as a kid. One of the common things I remember from psychology is human beings don't like to feel like they've "gone down" in the sense of much anything, be it living in a nice house to a shack or on the street, or in the sense of having a ton of stuff catered to you to having to share the spot light and understand life, the world, and media isn't all about you.

So no, like I said before, I'm not opposed to such things and would never mod it out. That doesn't mean I always like it being thrown or shoved in, especially if it's very blatant the purpose wasn't to introduce and interesting a fun character that just so happens to be this one thing, but rather make that one thing their defining characteristic and almost the only thing about them that matters. I've had situations in the past where I grew to dislike the side character because of this, and that's hard to do for me since I prefer to only hate genuine bastards or evil.

[Mysti_Fogg]

Originally posted by ThespianMask:

Originally posted by Mysti_Fogg:

As a matter of moral complexity, I would find such a story interesting. Though also extremely off putting. Wouldn't want that romance option. It would be like the James Vega romance option where you r*pe him in ME3. I know the option exits. I would never, ever use it. The idea just squicks me out.

I much prefer the original Dorian, especially considering how little gay representation there is. And also, I enjoy Dorian's company the way I enjoy the company of many of the gay guys of my acquaintance. Though I always feel weird with the natural answers to his dialogues being the flirty ones. None of my gay friends think I'm flirting with them when I'm just bantering.

Evil options in video games intrigue me. Defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes and "permanently" ending Leliana as a result was so intriguing to me. I like evil in games because I want to see how far writers and creative directors are willing to take evil in their games.

A blood-magic'd identity-erased Dorian would be like surrendering Shadowheart to the Shar temple for brain washing after romancing her. The ultimate betrayal resulting in total identity erasure. It's supposed to make you feel sick. It's fiction, and fiction should be a safe space for anyone to explore anything, effed up as it may be.

Mmm... I can think of arguments both in favor and against video games with such actions.

There is an argument to be made that dark games can normalize awful behavior. But there's also an argument to be made that it provides stress release so that people don't do socially unacceptable things in public.

In the end, there's enough variety that I can just view games as art, and leave them be. I don't see the need to be reative against them so long as there are positive games to balance the negatives.